dear kirk/mg

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Expand view Topic review: dear kirk/mg

Re: dear kirk/mg

by ThatsRight » Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:57 am

I don't think you really have a grasp on economics


Think again. :lol:
if you believe that it "effects" every working American in a negative way.
Customers have to pay higher prices because of theft. This goes for any product. Stealing a CD is no different than the person stealing a steak from a store. People who work day in and day out, have to get by with less purchasing power, or work longer to buy things.......but joe blow ass hole should get it free because he or she has an Internet connection and the rationalization that stealing is ok. Then, there's the very idea that some fat idiot like in the article is living the high life off of stolen money...while someone like a nurse or flight attendent works every day to provide for their families and struggles to get by. Stealing is a slap in the face to every honest, hardworking person who earns what they get or has to go without things because they cannot afford it.

So, if a pension fund or my retirement accounts have an interest in a media/tech company, I guess I should just get lower returns because someone choose to steal shareholder wealth? Right...

The money people save on not paying artificially high prices for entertainment goes right back into the economy for more needed goods or towards savings.
:roll:

People are basically stealing the production and creativity of companies/artists who risk their own capital and use their own talent. It's a transfer of purchasing power from people who choose to actually buy things or create things....to those who choose to steal. I hope you see how that harms the economy and incentive.

If you can "justify" stealing music....you can justify stealing just about anything.

Historically, in many cultures this type of stealing is even worse and punished more severely. A poor person stealing food to survive does so out of instinct and a real need. A person stealing music...is stealing to steal.






This is common sense really.

Re: dear kirk/mg

by james- » Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:50 am

It's stupid.

Cnet and download.com will never get sued for doing the same shit... but that's because CBS owns them... anyone see anything wrong with all of this?

This guy just profited off what everyone else was doing at the time. It's the american way, is it not? lol

Re: dear kirk/mg

by xpx » Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:03 am

Reh wrote:
Imprisoning a man who has costed big companies millions > justice to a man who raped and murdered a woman.

Obviously.
It's more than just costing a big company money. Theft of that scale undermines the entire economic system. Him accumulating that amount of wealth in this manner is essentially a slap in the face to every person that gets up and goes to work every day. To every person who can't afford the medical care they need. To every mother unable to feed their child. Not only that, but the money they earned from this labor, is taken in greater amounts to get the things they need because business has to price in theft.

He's stealing the shareholder's wealth. That is, people's retirements, their college savings, you name it. It effects the entire society directly and indirectly.

However, as bad as rape is (and I think sexual crimes are worse than murder) a massive fraud definately deserves 50 years.


Protecting the Public's interest,

Reh
I don't think you really have a grasp on economics if you believe that it "effects" every working American in a negative way. The money people save on not paying artificially high prices for entertainment goes right back into the economy for more needed goods or towards savings.
Also, while claiming that he caused that amount of shrinkage in total company revenue could be a good argument, I don't think that is the direction the defense should go (they didn't get these statistics from out of the blue). While seemingly obvious to you that it is a piracy site, the objective of the site was to provide a storage system for information to be passed along to other people, not a piracy site. If he can show that his company and employees actively fought against said piracy (which they did), it is a reasonable case to win in court. To prosecute this one site would be to prosecute the internet. Why not sue youtube for all of the illegally posted copyrighted content on its site?

Re: dear kirk/mg

by seaNsk » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:39 am

stealthlol wrote:Will knows all about asking for it. Just ask his dad.
Image

Re: dear kirk/mg

by mg_ » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:36 am

My criticism was more at the general banality of this.


The guys running the prison are still writing the rules so to speak. Megaupload's founder has, allegedly, committed a crime. From here on out, for the sake of my argument, I'll say he has been convicted. The problem I have with his prosecution ultimately rests on two issues. First, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and other intellectual property laws have contravened a lot of presumptions our legal system makes implicitly. Namely, you don't have to be proven guilty but merely accused to have your life thrown into a shit storm, it will cripple your own business (re: megaupload) and costs too much money to prove otherwise.

The burden of proof has moved from the complaining party to the defender. The "presumption of innocence" is completely meaningless in the context of intellectual property. More over, the punishment does not fit the crime. A song purchased for $.79 on iTunes should not become $1500 per song penalties in a court of law. It's a farce.


My other major gripe with intellectual property law, and it has more to do with the corporate control of our legal and political systems, is that there is a separate legal standard for people with money and those without. The rules are non-applicable to the wealthiest and will continue to be so. The grand irony of the SOPA/PIPA acts were the very senators and representatives in our government were illegally downloading music. The rules aren't tailored to them. Likewise, when Kazaa/Limewire were in court and were able to get out from underneath the charges because they proved the RIAA and MPAA had illegally downloaded their own copyrighted software and used it to "hack" the users on the p2p network.



The United States' legal system is losing its grip on the fundamentals. Lon Fuller writes a lot about natural law, and he coined the phrase "procedural natural law/jurisprudence." It's a wildly fantastic view of the legal order, I don't necessarily agree with his bottom line, but I do agree with his 8 requirements of a functioning legal system needs to have procedural jurisprudence.


(P1) the rules must be expressed in general terms;
(P2) the rules must be publicly promulgated;
(P3) the rules must be prospective in effect;
(P4) the rules must be expressed in understandable terms;
(P5) the rules must be consistent with one another;
(P6) the rules must not require conduct beyond the powers of the affected parties;
(P7) the rules must not be changed so frequently that the subject cannot rely on them; and
(P8) the rules must be administered in a manner consistent with their wording.


He set it up in a good hypothetical, which I enjoyed.

Re: dear kirk/mg

by stealthlol » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:11 am

Will knows all about asking for it. Just ask his dad.

Re: dear kirk/mg

by badnewspanda » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:36 am

alex kirk wrote:
I don't see a problem with someone involved in a major white collar crime receiving 50 years. I do see a problem with a man raping and murdering a girl only getting 20 years.

well in his defense the chick was totally asking for it.

Re: dear kirk/mg

by kirk » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:26 am

Reh wrote:It's more than just costing a big company money. Theft of that scale undermines the entire economic system. Him accumulating that amount of wealth in this manner is essentially a slap in the face to every person that gets up and goes to work every day. To every person who can't afford the medical care they need. To every mother unable to feed their child. Not only that, but the money they earned from this labor, is taken in greater amounts to get the things they need because business has to price in theft.

He's stealing the shareholder's wealth. That is, people's retirements, their college savings, you name it. It effects the entire society directly and indirectly.

However, as bad as rape is (and I think sexual crimes are worse than murder) a massive fraud definately deserves 50 years.


Protecting the Public's interest,

Reh
Hence me saying:

I don't see a problem with someone involved in a major white collar crime receiving 50 years. I do see a problem with a man raping and murdering a girl only getting 20 years.

Re: dear kirk/mg

by ThatsRight » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:17 am

Imprisoning a man who has costed big companies millions > justice to a man who raped and murdered a woman.

Obviously.
It's more than just costing a big company money. Theft of that scale undermines the entire economic system. Him accumulating that amount of wealth in this manner is essentially a slap in the face to every person that gets up and goes to work every day. To every person who can't afford the medical care they need. To every mother unable to feed their child. Not only that, but the money they earned from this labor, is taken in greater amounts to get the things they need because business has to price in theft.

He's stealing the shareholder's wealth. That is, people's retirements, their college savings, you name it. It effects the entire society directly and indirectly.

However, as bad as rape is (and I think sexual crimes are worse than murder) a massive fraud definately deserves 50 years.


Protecting the Public's interest,

Reh

Re: dear kirk/mg

by kirk » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:15 am

mg_ wrote:I will make the argument, if they can prove a $500 million loss, then he should be prosecuted. Say what you want, but that's a big deal. The bigger problem is the proving it. He knew what megaupload was being used for, so for him to pretend otherwise is sort of dubious.

If I thought he was going to get a fair trial on the issues, then I'd be okay with it. However, given the onus of proof is on the accused anymore I don't think so.

IP laws are out of sync with reality. That being said, in a vacuum, I think if one can prove someone is losing $500 million on revenues attributed to your site, then 50 years seems pretty proportionate. I want white collar crime to be treated as harshly as blue collar crime, but I want the focus of that crime on all people, not just a handful of 20 something website and internet deviants.
Agree with the bold, elaborate on the underlined? What people exactly?

I don't see a problem with someone involved in a major white collar crime receiving 50 years. I do see a problem with a man raping and murdering a girl only getting 20 years (I know the details aren't posted on that article, but it's something that has been receiving some attention coinciding the Megaupload case).

Re: dear kirk/mg

by mg_ » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:40 am

I will make the argument, if they can prove a $500 million loss, then he should be prosecuted. Say what you want, but that's a big deal. The bigger problem is the proving it. He knew what megaupload was being used for, so for him to pretend otherwise is sort of dubious.


If I thought he was going to get a fair trial on the issues, then I'd be okay with it. However, given the onus of proof is on the accused anymore I don't think so.


IP laws are out of sync with reality. That being said, in a vacuum, I think if one can prove someone is losing $500 million on revenues attributed to your site, then 50 years seems pretty proportionate. I want white collar crime to be treated as harshly as blue collar crime, but I want the focus of that crime on all people, not just a handful of 20 something website and internet deviants.

Re: dear kirk/mg

by kirk » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:34 pm

Imprisoning a man who has costed big companies millions > justice to a man who raped and murdered a woman.

Obviously.

dear kirk/mg

by jigsawww » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:12 pm

http://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-in ... 44239.html

I thought this was interesting discuss.


"50 years for him... 20 for a guy that rapes and murders a woman brutally... The world is not just."



"SO they allow terrorist and sites which condone killing Americans but have all the time to shut down this guy"

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