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joeledmunds wrote:Even when I've done bad on this map I haven't felt like it was the maps fault for being bad. The only route I didn't like much was middle, and even that I have a lot of fun playing. You just really need to have map control to cap middle usually or a smart player is probably going to be able to get a nade on you, or just peek you.

And mountain is a lot of fun.

See, your first sentence is actually the counter to what I would say. In our match I had a lot of kills my route, but it didn't matter because it was simply that- my route. I couldn't help mid because I would have to make noise going up a ladder, and a player could turn and shoot before my feet ever get planted. I felt like I was dominating the mountain side as axis, but it didn't really matter because all I could do was try to spawn camp (incredibly difficult on this map...so what do I do?). Honestly, I feel like this map would probably be a really "fun" pub map, but as far as competition goes, it has no place in a league rotation.

hella hella random. overall thumbs down going mid but wutev i'd play muhle aluetian sherman solitude (what else?) and pretty much any other map we've tried in leagues

I feel like emmanuel would be a better map if everything was like 10% bigger. The cow-mid connector especially is stupidly cramped and hard to use.

rymoz wrote:

scorch- wrote:I still don't understand how solitude is a better map than emmanuel. If someone can explain to me how a sniper and grenades getting 80% of the kills on a map make it good, maybe I can explain to you why you're bad.

Emmanuel is worse than solitude because there is roughly 6 spots to enter mid from. All of those connectors are clumsy and don't even help the players in mid actually control mid. Long is probably the only semi-decent route on the map and mountain is fucking awful. Lastly, it feels like anytime you push a side/route on that map, you're walking into a fucking death trap which has 20 different spots that people can peek you from. It's just terribly constructed and the fact that people still don't think its the worse league map ever played blows my fucking mind. The versions before this one were better than the one played this week.

I agree with Julez for the most part. Long is decent and nowhere near as retarded as mid/mountain. Mid does have way to many ways to get to it, it's like impossible to cover it. My big problem with mid is the sniper lofts, it just feels like you can't see shit in mid unless 90% of your body is showing. I think the lofts in the last version were good, even if you just took out the allies-long connector thing to allies loft would of been fine, now they are just retarded. Mountain is a cluster fuck, there is 500 camping spots and 500 different ways to get around.

I know everybody wants to play news maps etc, etc. But, what about Aleutian, Muhle? them maps aren't that bad and they were barely played.

scorch- wrote:See, the thing I consider to be the only good part of the map (the fact that spawn camping is really fucking hard) is something that you dislike about the map.

My issue isn't that I can't spawn camp. I think the choke points are in the wrong places. I also think the map has lots of awkward angles, hallways, corners (ie. allies/axis lofts, midhouse, axis connector, ladder, lower part of mountain).

cassinoroyale wrote:you have to agree that the map is pretty much balanced between sides and this is something we don't have in maps like lennon_b2 or even with harrington.

It doesn't matter if a map is balanced. Both teams play each side once. The most popular and played cs maps are all incredibly one-sided (for the most part) so that's not the issue.

sloth wrote:doing things we don't like occasionally is good for us. it takes a lot of teamwork and focus to adapt to a strange new map that most people don't like.

I'm definitely not against new maps or changes. I appreciate the time and effort lerf put into making this map and I agree that we should try and play new maps, but I just feel that this new version of emmanuel is one of the worst league maps I've ever played and should be fixed or thrown out.

bewton wrote:I think the map rewards faster playing teams. If you stay aggressive then you will eventually push your way to the spawn and capout. Also having different areas to access mid makes the middle teams watch all around them, forcing them to play aggressive and keep moving.

I think it's an extremely fun map and it's a nice switch up from the same old maps that have been played for nearly a decade.

***my opinion is also based off of about 2 or 3 scrims on the map. So maybe I was just playing awful teams.

I 100% agree with bewty


btw, getting back to the iwa vs sunnyville match, this was one of the most action paced matches Ive played in a LONG LONG time. I dunno if it was the 2 teams playing with an even level of skill or what, but our match was fast and intense. I know both teams didn't know who was going to win and it came down to the wire. Overall I enjoy the map, with a few tweaks id put up against alot of the other great maps.

bewton wrote:bingo joel. Plus I feel like if you can push the flanks, you can usually get behind mid, which allows your teammates to cap. I think people just need to play it more and adapt strats. Like when harrington first came out people used to send 2-2-2 allies. Then once people learned the map a little more, they started occasionally sending 3 mid to cap it. I'm sure people will eventually find advantages in the map that will make it a lot more fun.

This right here. I honestly don't think its been played enough as a rotation map to really garner a true opinion. I found myself peeking mid when Meekrab was pushed up to the opposing teams 2nd flag, long route that is, more as we adapted to the map. Snagged a few kills here and there and helped the mid team gain control. When Meekrab died, simply stopped and checked my route until he respawned. We traded back and forth during the 2nd round on Axis, and it really helped us in the end when we had a come from behind win. I ended up DCing for about 3-4 min on Axis, and they already had an 18 point lead from the first half, and on top of that capped out while I was DC'd putting us even further behind.

The end of the match was quite exciting, simply because we were all adjusting our routes and play style individually, and the end result was very entertaining.

bingo joel. Plus I feel like if you can push the flanks, you can usually get behind mid, which allows your teammates to cap. I think people just need to play it more and adapt strats. Like when harrington first came out people used to send 2-2-2 allies. Then once people learned the map a little more, they started occasionally sending 3 mid to cap it. I'm sure people will eventually find advantages in the map that will make it a lot more fun.

Even when I've done bad on this map I haven't felt like it was the maps fault for being bad. The only route I didn't like much was middle, and even that I have a lot of fun playing. You just really need to have map control to cap middle usually or a smart player is probably going to be able to get a nade on you, or just peek you.

And mountain is a lot of fun.

Long is dumb. If you're allies you got 2 ways to go, either you go lower and get naded, or you go upper and get naded from apps. As axis you either kill someone with a nade and can push, or you get naded. So fun.

doing things we don't like occasionally is good for us. it takes a lot of teamwork and focus to adapt to a strange new map that most people don't like.

I have mixed feelings on the map, but think that people who are going as far as trying to play other maps are way out of line. I wasn't really fond of the earlier versions of emmanuel, and liked this one the best, but that still doesn't mean i love the map. There's definitely a lot of room for improvement, but to say its the worst map in competitive dod history is laughable at best.

One of the things i like the most about it is the fact that you can't "play like a zombie." What I mean by this is, that when you are in a 12 man or late night scrim, people are like, "Let's play harrington, you don't have to think too much." And what they mean by this is they can do the same exact thing every spawn, and play like zombies doing the same thing over and over again. You really can't do that on this map because of all the connecters and flanking. Having to use your brain is a positive, not a negative.

I do think it needs to be slowed down a bit. Whether that means making the map slightly bigger, or taking the double out of middle and placing 2 doubles on long and lower mountain, or something to increase teamwork a bit. I scrimmed mountain all week long as a heavy, and while racking up the kills was nice, it really wasn't that fun. Some of the angles and things you can use need fixed. However, i rifled in my match and long plays great, in my opinion. Its not that far off.

alot of pressure from both ways when your stuck at the 1 and 2 trying to hold your flags when the other team has mid that's for sure.

btw when is this hsb vs 3h shit going down i want to see that

rymoz wrote:

scorch- wrote:I still don't understand how solitude is a better map than emmanuel. If someone can explain to me how a sniper and grenades getting 80% of the kills on a map make it good, maybe I can explain to you why you're bad.

Emmanuel is worse than solitude because there is roughly 6 spots to enter mid from. All of those connectors are clumsy and don't even help the players in mid actually control mid. Long is probably the only semi-decent route on the map and mountain is fucking awful. Lastly, it feels like anytime you push a side/route on that map, you're walking into a fucking death trap which has 20 different spots that people can peek you from. It's just terribly constructed and the fact that people still don't think its the worse league map ever played blows my fucking mind. The versions before this one were better than the one played this week.

I, respectfully, totally disagree with you. Mid may be a pain to cap because there are really many ways to not even look but to nade break as well but you have to agree that the map is pretty much balanced between sides and this is something we don't have in maps like lennon_b2 or even with harrington. Emmanuel isn't definitely the holy grail (which jared will say that is anzio) of the DoD maps, and lerf's intention wasn't to please all tastes for maps, but you have to agree that is a legit, fast paced map, which every route is connected with its closest routes, that achieved what MANY other custom maps that are actually playable as well (aleutian, muhle_b2, sherman and even solitude) couldn't get through a little spam time. I'm pretty much happy that the map turned out the way it did (glad that long is actually good because I bothered lerf the most for him keeping up the apartments area) upon its finally release and given that I not only followed but tested all versions released ever since, in my humble, this version is the best so far.

Haters gonna hate, that's all.

I think the map rewards faster playing teams. If you stay aggressive then you will eventually push your way to the spawn and capout. Also having different areas to access mid makes the middle teams watch all around them, forcing them to play aggressive and keep moving.

I think it's an extremely fun map and it's a nice switch up from the same old maps that have been played for nearly a decade.

***my opinion is also based off of about 2 or 3 scrims on the map. So maybe I was just playing awful teams.

See, the thing I consider to be the only good part of the map (the fact that spawn camping is really fucking hard) is something that you dislike about the map.

Bad parts about the map... spawns are too close to the first flags. It makes full caps more random... the difference between a full cap or dying to 5 people on a spawn ramp can be whether a kill on the other side of the map happened 1 sec before or after the previous spawn cycle.

The middle of the map is awful. The lofts are terribly constructed, there's no way to peek without exposing yourself to like 2-3 other spots. There's no real place to snipe from besides the lofts (which, as pointed out, are horrible). There is no cover in the middle or along the sides. The mid connector is cramped, and the doorway makes flanking routes from one that you have won difficult (to say the least). Same with the ladder. You can win one route, but if you want to help to/from middle you have to make so much noise that Helen Keller would feel you coming.

The mountain route is okay... but it feels very axis sided. I suppose it's the same reason that harrington mountain is allies-sided. On initial, there is going to be a meeting around where both players can get to in the middle of the route. When axis win this battle, they get to control the ladder connecting middle and possibly pressure the allied first. When the allies win this battle, they get to get closer to the axis first flag, where, if they peek, they will likely get destroyed by 3 people respawning. Or maybe no one will respawn for another 8 seconds. You never know.

I didn't play long/cow at all this week. It looks easy on both sides. I'm not sure what went on there but there's basically no way to flank anywhere from that route unless you kill the other long team twice, and then kill their respawning mid team as well. There needs to be connections between the routes to make the maps more than just 2v2x3 w/ spawncamping being the main way of helping other routes.

Also, allied loft+mid-connector makes flanking from mountain up a ladder too difficult, and the railing spot at garden makes flanking mountain from middle too difficult. It's like the mapmaker said "Hey, here's some flanks..." and then booby-trapped them for fun. Great work.

All that being said, solitude suffers from the exact same problems AND on top of that makes the primary battle mode between middle and garden grenades and gives both snipers spots that are almost impossible to die in when used properly.

rymoz wrote: Emmanuel is worse than solitude because there is roughly 6 spots to enter mid from. All of those connectors are clumsy and don't even help the players in mid actually control mid. Long is probably the only semi-decent route on the map and mountain is fucking awful. Lastly, it feels like anytime you push a side/route on that map, you're walking into a fucking death trap which has 20 different spots that people can peek you from. It's just terribly constructed and the fact that people still don't think its the worse league map ever played blows my fucking mind. The versions before this one were better than the one played this week.

I can agree with mid having shitty connectors, but it is in no way worse than playing merderet, lennon (in 12 mans), or chemille (against MGs or camping fucks). There are just some maps that have their moments and some that are just shitty. I feel like this one is right in between. I like some aspects of long, I like some aspects of mountain, but I have to say running middle as the last man alive is one of the worst jobs you can have. I think some of the choke points need some work but I wouldn't say it is worse than some other maps that we play on a regular basis.

I have to agree with Scorch on this one. To be successful on Solitude you don't have to be a good player or smarter than your opponent, you don't even need the greatest team work. You could win a match on Solitude with a pretty basic system: Nade over church, Wait in a dark spot or prone behind something, Shoot in back, Move up, Prone, Shoot in Back, Nade, Spawn Camp, and then repeat. I understand anyone could follow a system like that on any map but it is more noticeable on Solitude. You honestly don't need as much skill on Solitude as you would on Railroad or Harrington.

scorch- wrote:I still don't understand how solitude is a better map than emmanuel. If someone can explain to me how a sniper and grenades getting 80% of the kills on a map make it good, maybe I can explain to you why you're bad.

Emmanuel is worse than solitude because there is roughly 6 spots to enter mid from. All of those connectors are clumsy and don't even help the players in mid actually control mid. Long is probably the only semi-decent route on the map and mountain is fucking awful. Lastly, it feels like anytime you push a side/route on that map, you're walking into a fucking death trap which has 20 different spots that people can peek you from. It's just terribly constructed and the fact that people still don't think its the worse league map ever played blows my fucking mind. The versions before this one were better than the one played this week.

toxinatoR wrote:

scorch- wrote:I still don't understand how solitude is a better map than emmanuel. If someone can explain to me how a sniper and grenades getting 80% of the kills on a map make it good, maybe I can explain to you why you're bad.

And this is coming from a guy who knows a thing or two about dod.

scorch- wrote:I still don't understand how solitude is a better map than emmanuel. If someone can explain to me how a sniper and grenades getting 80% of the kills on a map make it good, maybe I can explain to you why you're bad.

And this is coming from a guy who knows a thing or two about dod.

scorch- wrote:I still don't understand how solitude is a better map than emmanuel. If someone can explain to me how a sniper and grenades getting 80% of the kills on a map make it good, maybe I can explain to you why you're bad.

Good point.

scorch- wrote:I still don't understand how solitude is a better map than emmanuel. If someone can explain to me how a sniper and grenades getting 80% of the kills on a map make it good, maybe I can explain to you why you're bad.

You guys use grenades? Lol dorks

I still don't understand how solitude is a better map than emmanuel. If someone can explain to me how a sniper and grenades getting 80% of the kills on a map make it good, maybe I can explain to you why you're bad.

I SMELL A GRUDGE MATCH

lolinus wrote:Someone seems a bit upset about losing.

We practiced our asses off for this match...

shoguNtw wrote:lol you were crying because we wanted to play solitude, but hey cant let all that emmanuel practice just go out the window hey

So basically you're upset that we made you play the map of the week? Seriously,

shoguNtw wrote:lol you were crying because we wanted to play solitude, but hey cant let all that emmanuel practice just go out the window hey

Someone seems a bit upset about losing.

lol you were crying because we wanted to play solitude, but hey cant let all that emmanuel practice just go out the window hey

nomis wrote:You guys lost? why didn't you respond to my text colby?

Yeh apparently they wern't trying/didn't have there starters. We on the other hand were trying our hardest with all of our starters (random 6th every week) but hey who is counting?

dont have my phone

You guys lost? why didn't you respond to my text colby?

gg

lol 1st half i was just fucking around until i realized we were losing

anyone record hltv?

shogun's nades were fucking amazing and annoying all at the same time...

no one wants to watch this god awful map thank god its over

gg

GOING LIVE !!!!


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