by sevEN » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:45 am
Sears wrote:sevEN wrote:lol franco harris seriously? thurman thomas? these guys are not even close to being considered in the GOAT conversation or the adrian peterson conversation. i mean, there are plenty of guys i would put on a list like yours before including a THURMAN THOMAS bro. the guy never broke 1500 yds rushing and had double digit touchdowns once in 13 seasons. AP has 83 total touchdowns in 6 seasons to thurman's 88 in 13 seasons. AP has only scored less than 12 rushing TD's once in his career, and he had 10 that season. L O L. and franco harris? his best season doesnt even come close to AP's worst season lmfao. you're insane. marcus allen.... surpassed 1k yards rushing in 3 of his 16 nfl seasons.
and i dont even know what to say about that art/skill comment. you either don't know how to judge "skill" or we aren't watching the same player.
Franco Harris played fullback... and if he isn't near the top of your list of GOAT running backs then it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about and have no sense of the history of the game of football. Franco is a legend.
While career statistics are an important metric to consider, they can only tell part of the story given the context of a players career and their impact (or lack thereof) on the game.
Peterson is a great player, but mostly because he is such a physical freak, not because he's so much better than everyone else at his position. No player is perfect, but AP has plenty of flaws (whether his fans like to admit or not) that have actually held him back quite a bit. He's a freak physically, but he tends to get lazy with the ball and cradle it away from his body, which is probably why he struggled so much with fumbles earlier in his career, accumulating 26 fumbles in his first 6 seasons. Although he has showed a great deal of improvement the last 4 seasons, we are one game into the season and he's already lost one. But more importantly than this is the fact that he relies on his physical ability so much that he often loses spacial awareness and leaves his body in awkward positions, leaving him vulnerable to serious injury.
It's this intangible skill that doesn't show up on the stat sheet that defines a players impact on gameday, on his team, and on the game itself throughout his career. The Vikings would be a lot better team, perhaps even with multiple super bowl titles by now, and AP would be a hands down hall of famer if he wasn't injured so often because of his inability to limit the amount of awkward contact he takes every game.
Example:
p7pkWFZZDhM&start=8
Poor spacial awareness, doesn't keep his eyes down field so he can't avoid contact, puts himself in a bad position physically, tries to extend the play with only his physical ability even though the play is over, and on top of that doesn't secure the ball and the result is an easy score for the defense. This hurts his team, this isn't GOAT material:
49wEr2le4G0&start=1
If you're going to use Fantasy Football statistics to make your argument for GOAT, you're gonna have a bad time.
All of the people I listed belong on the GOAT list, and AP doesn't (yet). I'm sorry. That's just reality. I even left out greats like Gale Sayers, Eric Dickerson, Earl Campbell, Tony Dorsett, Curtis Martin, or even LaDainian Tomlinson, all of which belong much higher up the list than AP not because they were fantasy football killers, but because they changed the game in their respective eras. Did you even know who Franco was or anything about his career? Or did you just look up his stats compared to AP?
Google
"greatest running backs of all time". I imagine you'll find that the internet agrees with many of the players I've listed.
If AP's career were over today, his career would match up quite well with that of Terrell Davis, except that he was better and won 2 super bowls. AP is Terrell Davis 2.0. He's an outstanding athlete and player, but GOAT...?
You're dreaming.
first thing, i am a football historian and would be willing to go out on a limb and say i know more about it than anyone around here. i may be wrong, but that is just how i feel about my knowledge of the game. past and present. and i know franco harris is a legend and i am aware of what he did for the steelers in the 70's. but you can't throw the GOAT title around like it's nothing. when you start talkign about that, you obviously have to shave off some of the great ones. you cant have 20 guys in the top 10 or 10 guys in the top 5... there are going to be some guys that were outstanding football players like harris, or thurman thomas, that are going to get clipped when you start narrowing down the list. and franco is a guy who was great and had his historic moments, but he wasnt even the most legendary on his team at the time. not even close. there is a list of 5-7 guys who you would think of way before franco harris if you brought up "legendary steelers of the 70s". and legendary status is not what i factor in when i am judging the talent of a player or his ability to play the position. so as i said, i do acknowledge that franco was a great HOF back, when you get into the top 10, some guys are going to get squeezed out. you can't have them all in there. franco just doesnt make it in the top 10 conversation.
and while i do understand and acknowledge that stats are not the full picture, they ARE a huge part of the picture and when you are comparing running backs from different eras, with different rules, sometimes the stats become a little more important. especially when AP's numbers are THAT much better than someone elses.. it gets to a point where you say "ok, he matched his career touchdowns in 6 seasons when it took this guy 13 seasons" that becomes a pretty strong clue.
and your argument about peterson being great only because he is a physical freak? i mean... he's only productive cuz he's a big giant strong fast copenhagen who doesnt know shit about what he's doing but he only runs through ppl cuz hes a big fast strong gorilla? it just shows a totoal lack of credit being given to AP and his work ethic. he has an incredible ability to make guys miss 1 on 1. and he can do it by juking you, running through you, or running away from you. that is a talent that only the very best have possessed. his vision is also second to none. he is outstanding at reading the defense and picking the holes and reading his blocks. he is actually very patient and allows his blockers to set up the play and then he cuts and explodes up the field. and ya he had issues holding the ball... but look up how many fumbles walter peyton had in his first 3 seasons in the league. check jim browns fumbles. emmit smiths. i remember researching there are some great backs that you listed that had just as many if not more fumbles in their first 3 years in the league as AP did. but he has since corrected that problem and the fumble last sunday was christian ponder's fault. ponder tripped on his center's foot and was falling backwards and still tried to stick the ball in AP's stomach even though he should have just held onto and fell over. so don't credit AP with that fumble.
and what is wrong with utilizing his physical abilities? You seem to be discrediting him for doing that while also writing off all of his success to the fact that he has unique physical abilities. i think there is nothing wrong with resorting to just brute strength when the play has nothing left but he feels like forcing the issue by not going down and wrestling for a few extra yards. that is part of what makes him special. he wears down defenses physically and mentally. when he doesnt go down like that, or hits guys when he could go down or out of bounds, and requires them to bring 4 guys to tackle him, he is putting something into their head that makes them not want to tackle him. they become weak, tired, and scared. and he becomes more aggressive and stronger. it's just part ofthe style of play that he plays with. i admit it doesnt look pretty or elegant like a gale sayers, or errick dickerson, or LT. the guy is very muscular and looks awkward at times. but that doesnt mean he doesnt have the vision, instincts, or intelligence of an elite RB.
im also wondering why you are bringing the injury thing into the equation. minus the one ACL tear, he has had one other minor injury that he missed 2 or 3 games for back in 2008 i think, but other than that he has played the majority of his games and has played well through injuries. and you saw what he did last year coming off injury so it has not slowed him down.
lets disect his first touchdown of this season while we are throwing videos out there.
6YLaYcMX-7Y
well the first thing i am noticing here is that it is a counter play. requires a lot of patience by the RB. they start out to the right, as the offensive line does, but he takes the hand off and heads left and follows the fullback up the middle. blocked very well the the offensive line. but, as with almost every single run adrian has, there are 9 men in the box and only 8 men to block (5 o lineman, 1 TE, a WR and a fullback). obviously there is going to be 1 man unaccounted for. so, they start right, takes the hand off and heads left. fullback makes a great block up the hole but AP has to cut it upward and to the right once again. great job of reading his blockers. once he's through the hole, there is a free defender who is in the best possible spot to stop this play for a 3 or 4 yard gain. adrian peterson lays an incredible jump step cut on this guy that leaves him looking silly. and that is due to his instincts as a runner and his vision. this play was not made possible by his "physical freakishness" but by his instincts, his ability to cut on a dime, ability to read the defense, and by his skills to simply perform such a cut back. then he takes a few steps up and louis delmas comes into the picture and AP once again side steps and changes his direction enough for delmas to wiff once again in a 1 on 1 situation. at this point, he has not yet utilized his freakish physical stature and has relied only on his vision, his reading of the defense, and his instinctual ability or skill to make guys miss in the hole in a confined space. once delmas is out of the picture, he uses his speed to outrun the entire defense. but he didnt use his size or his strength on this place. only his speed to run away once the play was over. i think there are only a handful of runners who could have made these kind of reads and cuts so quickly and effectively. and the part that makes him great is that he does these kinds of things in a giant body that SHOULD NOT be able to execute them. there have been plenty of strength/size/speed/quickness athletes that have flopped in the NFL but AP has that combination on top of the work ethic, the instincts, the vision, the determination, and other things like that.
also, the play where peterson tore his ACL, how can you put that on HIM?? he was running a trap play up the middle and was doing nothing awkward with his body or the contact he takes. he lowers his shoulder and the guy dives at his knee because he was tired of taking a beating all game going above the waist. i don't see how you can point to that clip and say AP allows awkward contact.
and your play against the packers is not something that happens all the time. nobody has ever stripped AP and returned it for a TD before and most of his fumbles don't happen this way either. they happen, as you brought up, when he is running full speed and holding the ball away from his body. once he gets a guy or 2 on him and he tucks the ball away, he's fine. it was a good play by mathews, and a play that hasn't happened before or after that again. that play is not an ongoing problem in his career.
and i don't need to google any kind of greatest rb of all time list. i can argue with you in person with no computer in front of me and spit out stats and players and rankings with the best of them and you would have to know a shitload to stump me. but one thing i have said before part of my opinion on AP in this kind of discussion is projected throughout a full career. how can i compare a runner who had 13 nfl seasons to AP who has had 6? (and still almost matched his career numbers at that point). i also factor in pure talent into the equation more than others do. i like to ask myself the question of "who would i rather take in their prime to build a team around?" if you would take franco harris over AP, or thurman thomas over AP, or any other guys i can name, then im just glad you are not a GM.
lol, and davis was better than AP? wow... must have been nice to play with john elway, rod smith, ed mcaffrey and shannon sharp in the passing game... plug AP into that offense and he far and away blows out what TD did. one thing you are failing to factor into this judgment of AP is what he has been able to do with the piss poor passing game he has had to work with. the dude has never seen 7 in the box in his life and has constantly been the ONLY offensive player the defense cared about. and what AP did last year after a gruesome major knee injury is something that nobody on your list has ever done.
and for fun, i am going to give you my own list that i think could be argued as top 5 of all time. as i said before in my post, great runners are going to get clipped. you cant fit the franco harrisses, thurman thomases, and marcus allens in the top 5. but here goes:
Walter Payton
Jim Brown
Barry Sanders
Gale Sayers
Emmit Smith (i have to include by default, but i feel he was overrated)
LaDanian Tomlinson
Marshall Faulk
OJ Simpson
Eric Dickerson
Adrian Peterson
Second tier:
Earl Campbell
Tony Dorsett
Marcus Allen
Franco Harris
Marion Motley
Roger Craig
Thurman Thomas
Jim Taylor
Chuck Foreman
John Riggins
and im sure there are a few that i am forgetting. this was all off the top of my head.
While i feel like cambell/dorsett/allen could be placed in that top 10 list somewhere depending on who you ask, it is just too hard to fit guys into a "top 10" kind of system. some greats are gonna get clipped. but i think it's safe to say that it would be very difficult to place anyone from that second tier in the top 5 greatest RBs of all time. there were just way too many greats.
all in all, i think your assessment of AP is off base and you seem to be writing off his talent and accomplishment to "freaky physical ability" which seems a bit unfair to me. but hey, everyone has their opinion. i guess we can revisit in 3 or 4 years and see where we stand after AP does it for a little bit longer.
[quote="Sears"][quote="sevEN"]lol franco harris seriously? thurman thomas? these guys are not even close to being considered in the GOAT conversation or the adrian peterson conversation. i mean, there are plenty of guys i would put on a list like yours before including a THURMAN THOMAS bro. the guy never broke 1500 yds rushing and had double digit touchdowns once in 13 seasons. AP has 83 total touchdowns in 6 seasons to thurman's 88 in 13 seasons. AP has only scored less than 12 rushing TD's once in his career, and he had 10 that season. L O L. and franco harris? his best season doesnt even come close to AP's worst season lmfao. you're insane. marcus allen.... surpassed 1k yards rushing in 3 of his 16 nfl seasons.
and i dont even know what to say about that art/skill comment. you either don't know how to judge "skill" or we aren't watching the same player.[/quote]
Franco Harris played fullback... and if he isn't near the top of your list of GOAT running backs then it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about and have no sense of the history of the game of football. Franco is a legend.
While career statistics are an important metric to consider, they can only tell part of the story given the context of a players career and their impact (or lack thereof) on the game.
Peterson is a great player, but mostly because he is such a physical freak, not because he's so much better than everyone else at his position. No player is perfect, but AP has plenty of flaws (whether his fans like to admit or not) that have actually held him back quite a bit. He's a freak physically, but he tends to get lazy with the ball and cradle it away from his body, which is probably why he struggled so much with fumbles earlier in his career, accumulating 26 fumbles in his first 6 seasons. Although he has showed a great deal of improvement the last 4 seasons, we are one game into the season and he's already lost one. But more importantly than this is the fact that he relies on his physical ability so much that he often loses spacial awareness and leaves his body in awkward positions, leaving him vulnerable to serious injury.
It's this intangible skill that doesn't show up on the stat sheet that defines a players impact on gameday, on his team, and on the game itself throughout his career. The Vikings would be a lot better team, perhaps even with multiple super bowl titles by now, and AP would be a hands down hall of famer if he wasn't injured so often because of his inability to limit the amount of awkward contact he takes every game.
Example:
[youtube]p7pkWFZZDhM&start=8[/youtube]
Poor spacial awareness, doesn't keep his eyes down field so he can't avoid contact, puts himself in a bad position physically, tries to extend the play with only his physical ability even though the play is over, and on top of that doesn't secure the ball and the result is an easy score for the defense. This hurts his team, this isn't GOAT material:
[youtube]49wEr2le4G0&start=1[/youtube]
If you're going to use Fantasy Football statistics to make your argument for GOAT, you're gonna have a bad time.
All of the people I listed belong on the GOAT list, and AP doesn't (yet). I'm sorry. That's just reality. I even left out greats like Gale Sayers, Eric Dickerson, Earl Campbell, Tony Dorsett, Curtis Martin, or even LaDainian Tomlinson, all of which belong much higher up the list than AP not because they were fantasy football killers, but because they changed the game in their respective eras. Did you even know who Franco was or anything about his career? Or did you just look up his stats compared to AP?
Google [url=http://bit.ly/15WIF1k]"greatest running backs of all time"[/url]. I imagine you'll find that the internet agrees with many of the players I've listed.
If AP's career were over today, his career would match up quite well with that of Terrell Davis, except that he was better and won 2 super bowls. AP is Terrell Davis 2.0. He's an outstanding athlete and player, but GOAT...?
You're dreaming.[/quote]
first thing, i am a football historian and would be willing to go out on a limb and say i know more about it than anyone around here. i may be wrong, but that is just how i feel about my knowledge of the game. past and present. and i know franco harris is a legend and i am aware of what he did for the steelers in the 70's. but you can't throw the GOAT title around like it's nothing. when you start talkign about that, you obviously have to shave off some of the great ones. you cant have 20 guys in the top 10 or 10 guys in the top 5... there are going to be some guys that were outstanding football players like harris, or thurman thomas, that are going to get clipped when you start narrowing down the list. and franco is a guy who was great and had his historic moments, but he wasnt even the most legendary on his team at the time. not even close. there is a list of 5-7 guys who you would think of way before franco harris if you brought up "legendary steelers of the 70s". and legendary status is not what i factor in when i am judging the talent of a player or his ability to play the position. so as i said, i do acknowledge that franco was a great HOF back, when you get into the top 10, some guys are going to get squeezed out. you can't have them all in there. franco just doesnt make it in the top 10 conversation.
and while i do understand and acknowledge that stats are not the full picture, they ARE a huge part of the picture and when you are comparing running backs from different eras, with different rules, sometimes the stats become a little more important. especially when AP's numbers are THAT much better than someone elses.. it gets to a point where you say "ok, he matched his career touchdowns in 6 seasons when it took this guy 13 seasons" that becomes a pretty strong clue.
and your argument about peterson being great only because he is a physical freak? i mean... he's only productive cuz he's a big giant strong fast copenhagen who doesnt know shit about what he's doing but he only runs through ppl cuz hes a big fast strong gorilla? it just shows a totoal lack of credit being given to AP and his work ethic. he has an incredible ability to make guys miss 1 on 1. and he can do it by juking you, running through you, or running away from you. that is a talent that only the very best have possessed. his vision is also second to none. he is outstanding at reading the defense and picking the holes and reading his blocks. he is actually very patient and allows his blockers to set up the play and then he cuts and explodes up the field. and ya he had issues holding the ball... but look up how many fumbles walter peyton had in his first 3 seasons in the league. check jim browns fumbles. emmit smiths. i remember researching there are some great backs that you listed that had just as many if not more fumbles in their first 3 years in the league as AP did. but he has since corrected that problem and the fumble last sunday was christian ponder's fault. ponder tripped on his center's foot and was falling backwards and still tried to stick the ball in AP's stomach even though he should have just held onto and fell over. so don't credit AP with that fumble.
and what is wrong with utilizing his physical abilities? You seem to be discrediting him for doing that while also writing off all of his success to the fact that he has unique physical abilities. i think there is nothing wrong with resorting to just brute strength when the play has nothing left but he feels like forcing the issue by not going down and wrestling for a few extra yards. that is part of what makes him special. he wears down defenses physically and mentally. when he doesnt go down like that, or hits guys when he could go down or out of bounds, and requires them to bring 4 guys to tackle him, he is putting something into their head that makes them not want to tackle him. they become weak, tired, and scared. and he becomes more aggressive and stronger. it's just part ofthe style of play that he plays with. i admit it doesnt look pretty or elegant like a gale sayers, or errick dickerson, or LT. the guy is very muscular and looks awkward at times. but that doesnt mean he doesnt have the vision, instincts, or intelligence of an elite RB.
im also wondering why you are bringing the injury thing into the equation. minus the one ACL tear, he has had one other minor injury that he missed 2 or 3 games for back in 2008 i think, but other than that he has played the majority of his games and has played well through injuries. and you saw what he did last year coming off injury so it has not slowed him down.
lets disect his first touchdown of this season while we are throwing videos out there.
[youtube]6YLaYcMX-7Y[/youtube]
well the first thing i am noticing here is that it is a counter play. requires a lot of patience by the RB. they start out to the right, as the offensive line does, but he takes the hand off and heads left and follows the fullback up the middle. blocked very well the the offensive line. but, as with almost every single run adrian has, there are 9 men in the box and only 8 men to block (5 o lineman, 1 TE, a WR and a fullback). obviously there is going to be 1 man unaccounted for. so, they start right, takes the hand off and heads left. fullback makes a great block up the hole but AP has to cut it upward and to the right once again. great job of reading his blockers. once he's through the hole, there is a free defender who is in the best possible spot to stop this play for a 3 or 4 yard gain. adrian peterson lays an incredible jump step cut on this guy that leaves him looking silly. and that is due to his instincts as a runner and his vision. this play was not made possible by his "physical freakishness" but by his instincts, his ability to cut on a dime, ability to read the defense, and by his skills to simply perform such a cut back. then he takes a few steps up and louis delmas comes into the picture and AP once again side steps and changes his direction enough for delmas to wiff once again in a 1 on 1 situation. at this point, he has not yet utilized his freakish physical stature and has relied only on his vision, his reading of the defense, and his instinctual ability or skill to make guys miss in the hole in a confined space. once delmas is out of the picture, he uses his speed to outrun the entire defense. but he didnt use his size or his strength on this place. only his speed to run away once the play was over. i think there are only a handful of runners who could have made these kind of reads and cuts so quickly and effectively. and the part that makes him great is that he does these kinds of things in a giant body that SHOULD NOT be able to execute them. there have been plenty of strength/size/speed/quickness athletes that have flopped in the NFL but AP has that combination on top of the work ethic, the instincts, the vision, the determination, and other things like that.
also, the play where peterson tore his ACL, how can you put that on HIM?? he was running a trap play up the middle and was doing nothing awkward with his body or the contact he takes. he lowers his shoulder and the guy dives at his knee because he was tired of taking a beating all game going above the waist. i don't see how you can point to that clip and say AP allows awkward contact.
and your play against the packers is not something that happens all the time. nobody has ever stripped AP and returned it for a TD before and most of his fumbles don't happen this way either. they happen, as you brought up, when he is running full speed and holding the ball away from his body. once he gets a guy or 2 on him and he tucks the ball away, he's fine. it was a good play by mathews, and a play that hasn't happened before or after that again. that play is not an ongoing problem in his career.
and i don't need to google any kind of greatest rb of all time list. i can argue with you in person with no computer in front of me and spit out stats and players and rankings with the best of them and you would have to know a shitload to stump me. but one thing i have said before part of my opinion on AP in this kind of discussion is projected throughout a full career. how can i compare a runner who had 13 nfl seasons to AP who has had 6? (and still almost matched his career numbers at that point). i also factor in pure talent into the equation more than others do. i like to ask myself the question of "who would i rather take in their prime to build a team around?" if you would take franco harris over AP, or thurman thomas over AP, or any other guys i can name, then im just glad you are not a GM.
lol, and davis was better than AP? wow... must have been nice to play with john elway, rod smith, ed mcaffrey and shannon sharp in the passing game... plug AP into that offense and he far and away blows out what TD did. one thing you are failing to factor into this judgment of AP is what he has been able to do with the piss poor passing game he has had to work with. the dude has never seen 7 in the box in his life and has constantly been the ONLY offensive player the defense cared about. and what AP did last year after a gruesome major knee injury is something that nobody on your list has ever done.
and for fun, i am going to give you my own list that i think could be argued as top 5 of all time. as i said before in my post, great runners are going to get clipped. you cant fit the franco harrisses, thurman thomases, and marcus allens in the top 5. but here goes:
Walter Payton
Jim Brown
Barry Sanders
Gale Sayers
Emmit Smith (i have to include by default, but i feel he was overrated)
LaDanian Tomlinson
Marshall Faulk
OJ Simpson
Eric Dickerson
Adrian Peterson
Second tier:
Earl Campbell
Tony Dorsett
Marcus Allen
Franco Harris
Marion Motley
Roger Craig
Thurman Thomas
Jim Taylor
Chuck Foreman
John Riggins
and im sure there are a few that i am forgetting. this was all off the top of my head.
While i feel like cambell/dorsett/allen could be placed in that top 10 list somewhere depending on who you ask, it is just too hard to fit guys into a "top 10" kind of system. some greats are gonna get clipped. but i think it's safe to say that it would be very difficult to place anyone from that second tier in the top 5 greatest RBs of all time. there were just way too many greats.
all in all, i think your assessment of AP is off base and you seem to be writing off his talent and accomplishment to "freaky physical ability" which seems a bit unfair to me. but hey, everyone has their opinion. i guess we can revisit in 3 or 4 years and see where we stand after AP does it for a little bit longer.