1911 Beta

Any of you bros live in the cities where this is all going down?

Yeah there are some protests going on down the street from me. I'd stop by to check it out but I'm kinda busy. I heard they arrested 20 people the other day.

Unfortunately these protests are going to do jack shit to remedy any problems in the country. If hundreds of thousands (maybe over a million?) people countrywide protested going into Iraq back in 2003, and it didn't do shit to deter anybody from going in, I doubt a few thousand people protesting will motivate the people at the controls (the 1%) to self-assess.

Rob wrote:Yeah there are some protests going on down the street from me. I'd stop by to check it out but I'm kinda busy. I heard they arrested 20 people the other day.

Unfortunately these protests are going to do jack shit to remedy any problems in the country. If hundreds of thousands (maybe over a million?) people countrywide protested going into Iraq back in 2003, and it didn't do shit to deter anybody from going in, I doubt a few thousand people protesting will motivate the people at the controls (the 1%) to self-assess.

These protests are far larger than the war protests.

I agree it's a long shot, but just saying.

don't these people have jobs to be concerned about?

war protests? lol there have been protests for every war in history and it didn't stop them from taking place.


war crimes are saved for the losers.

i would care about the occupy protests if they didnt act like hypocrites while demanding idiotic things.

"i better use my ipad to post on facebook and twitter about my hatred of corporations! oh yea, need to upload this video to youtube, and get an interview from NBC done.

down with corporate greed!"

http://youtu.be/wrPGoPFRUdc

not counting a fair amount of hilarious antisemitism being spewed by these people completely oblivious to the economics or political reasons for this entire melt of the US system to begin with.

Occupy Bay Street is happening in Toronto.

Street Cars have been re-routed due to it.

There are 3 people protesting here.


One of them sits in a chair. Real motivated.

Sears wrote:

Poor Pluto left out in the cold. Don't worry Pluto, we might not call you a planet anymore, but we love you just the same.

I'd like to meet the faggots who burned the US flag and the one who shit on it...

ROFL someone shit on it? I'm sorry man. That makes me laugh

It's their right to do it though.

except they are basically saying "we are shitting on the very rights we are using to form this protest". they can do it all they want, its sorta silly to do so though.

unpro wrote:except they are basically saying "we are shitting on the very rights we are using to form this protest". they can do it all they want, its sorta silly to do so though.

American's have strange understanding of patriotism. The flag is just a symbol, like a piece of paper with the constitution written on it. Even if it's burned or shit on, or if you kill a bunch of people for it, what it represents is still the same. I agree that it's stupid to burn or poo on the flag, but you could make the argument that doing so is actually quite a patriotic act.

eh, i consider the flag a symbol of what are country was founded on.

unpro wrote:eh, i consider the flag a symbol of what are country was founded on.

Slavery and a political system that favored rich, white men.

i was thinking more about the original meaning behind the document, not the underlying socioeconomic aspects of society in that time period, but sure, whatever you say alex.

since we can all agree, all men(and women) are created equal, i think we can all agree everything else about the founding documents also stands as a way to protect and give rights to everyone regardless of social standing in society.

amazing how views change over the years, but the document and the rights it attempts to give and protect can be the same.


if you are going to claim constitutional rights in your defense of protest, dont shit on the very symbol that represents those rights.

I would simply think twice before judging the movement based off the a-holes that yell the loudest. Regardless of your employment status, SES, income, etc. - the movement itself has a strong message. The only way you can possibly disagree is if you stand up for a system that caters to the wealthiest. Are some of the people protesting self-righteous d-bags? Yep. Does that change the fact that some parts of our system are all kinds of crazy? Nope.

Oddly enough, my Occupy Poland efforts have been met with some resistance.

and whats that message? tax the corporations more? we already have the second highest corporate tax rate in the world. close the loopholes in our shitty tax code and you solve more problems than this protest does.

the minimum wage law can and is argued as one of the most harmful economic policies this government has ever implemented. not because it hurt rich people, but because it hurt the lower class the most. knee jerk reactions and laws implemented because of them hurt our country more than a CEO making 10 million a year ever will.

using sound economic thought and actually looking at more than just 2 years of "data" is what needs to happen, not instantly demanding obscene welfare rights.

this comes from a guy who lives under the poverty line and actually lives the life all these people are tying to "help".

unpro wrote:and whats that message? tax the corporations more? we already have the second highest corporate tax rate in the world. close the loopholes in our shitty tax code and you solve more problems than this protest does.

the minimum wage law can and is argued as one of the most harmful economic policies this government has ever implemented. not because it hurt rich people, but because it hurt the lower class the most. knee jerk reactions and laws implemented because of them hurt our country more than a CEO making 10 million a year ever will.

using sound economic thought and actually looking at more than just 2 years of "data" is what needs to happen, not instantly demanding obscene welfare rights.

this comes from a guy who lives under the poverty line and actually lives the life all these people are tying to "help".

Not trolling you, but almost all of the arguments you make are moot because you are speaking in an ego relevant voice.

The message of the occupy movement is simple. 1% of the population controls almost half the wealth, while the other 99% shares the rest due to structurally violent policy and socio-economic class structure. That's wrong, and people should know about it.

That's it. That's all the movement is about.

I understand your frustrations, but it isn't about you. You misrepresent the thesis and the anti-thesis when you structure your arguments on the basis or your own ego (existentially).

Sears wrote:Not trolling you, but almost all of the arguments you make are moot because you are speaking in an ego relevant voice.

The message of the occupy movement is simple. 1% of the population controls 99% of the wealth due to structurally violent policy and socio-economic class structure. That's wrong, and people should know about it.

That's it. That's all the movement is about.

I understand your frustrations, but it isn't about you. You misrepresent the thesis and the anti-thesis when you structure your arguments on the basis or your own ego (existentially).

1% controls ~40%

I strongly agree with what Eric is saying. Some of the people protesting have some idea that they deserve handouts. These are the people who are dumbest and shout the loudest, so they get more attention. But that is not the core of the movement, which states there is a problem when 1% of the population owns 40% of the wealth. Plain and simple.

My bad, Freudian slip from all of the 1/99 talk.

Wait Freud.... wha?...

welcome to capitalism, it happens. punishing people for being successful is silly.

whats the point of protesting it if you have no options you want to discuss to "fix" the problem?

i guess what im getting at, is this whole protest is fucking stupid. great, a few people are rich as shit, its been that way in every society in modern human history. they already are supposed to pay more taxes than any of us. the difference is our government NOT the people that are rich, have enabled them to get away with paying far less by allowing loopholes to exist.

close the loopholes. thats done in a different place than wall street.

unpro wrote:welcome to capitalism, it happens. punishing people for being successful is silly.

whats the point of protesting it if you have no options you want to discuss to "fix" the problem?

i guess what im getting at, is this whole protest is fucking stupid. great, a few people are rich as shit, its been that way in every society in modern human history. they already are supposed to pay more taxes than any of us. the difference is our government NOT the people that are rich, have enabled them to get away with paying far less by allowing loopholes to exist.

close the loopholes. thats done in a different place than wall street.

I said LESS ego to strengthen your arguments...

unpro wrote:welcome to capitalism, it happens. punishing people for being successful is silly.

whats the point of protesting it if you have no options you want to discuss to "fix" the problem?

i guess what im getting at, is this whole protest is fucking stupid. great, a few people are rich as shit, its been that way in every society in modern human history. they already are supposed to pay more taxes than any of us. the difference is our government NOT the people that are rich, have enabled them to get away with paying far less by allowing loopholes to exist.

close the loopholes. thats done in a different place than wall street.

Here's the point: it doesn't just "happen." Wall Street and big corporations have far too much influence in the political sphere. The main reason why the 1% continues to get richer while the 99% gets poorer is because the 1% pays the right people to perpetuate that unjust system. Look no further than lobbyists paying politicians to vote for/against certain legislation, or to have sole patent rights to a medication just to lift the price 200x.

Corruption exists to the Nth degree when the political realm and private realm mingle. It's just ridiculous. A protest that goes against government and corporate corruption is not "fucking stupid." But keep standing up for the rich who continue to exploit YOU, who interfere with the political process at YOUR expense. I'm sure they're thanking you for fighting their fight while they continue to fuck over the rest of society.

going on in hong kong but i could care less. a majority of people who go to those have no idea whats going on

ok, so whats the possible solution. where are the ideas to change things. what is this protest saying outside of "they have money and we dont, fuck them".

until you have a coherent basis for the protest outside of bitching about people having money you dont have, then the protest is fucking stupid.

we all know the system is fucked. having a fucking plan, or atleast ideas to the point, is kind of needed to induce any sort of change. without either you are basically allowing the repeat of the current issues stemming from the housing market bust to repeat in another cycle caused by this behavior and knee jerk reactionary laws or policies to placate the masses.

main point - i never said i didnt think the system was fucked, but this incoherent rambling protest with no real goal or plan is pointless and will most likely only make things worse.

Rob wrote:ROFL someone shit on it? I'm sorry man. That makes me laugh

It's their right to do it though.

It absolutely is, you're right. The American flag means different things to different people. I personally view it as a symbol of what this country was founded on and the history of it all. Many men and women bore the flag keeping this country safe and granting me my freedoms I'm very appreciative to have. I was raised to respect the flag and the country as a whole. I don't have to like Obama, but I sure as hell will show him respect should we run into eachother at Wal-Mart.

unpro wrote:ok, so whats the possible solution. where are the ideas to change things. what is this protest saying outside of "they have money and we dont, fuck them".

until you have a coherent basis for the protest outside of bitching about people having money you dont have, then the protest is fucking stupid.

we all know the system is fucked. having a fucking plan, or atleast ideas to the point, is kind of needed to induce any sort of change. without either you are basically allowing the repeat of the current issues stemming from the housing market bust to repeat in another cycle caused by this behavior and knee jerk reactionary laws or policies to placate the masses.

main point - i never said i didnt think the system was fucked, but this incoherent rambling protest with no real goal or plan is pointless and will most likely only make things worse.

What we are trying to say is that you have totally misconceived the whole thing based on what I can only make the assumption is preconceived notions and ego-driven subjective misrepresentations.

From your perspective, you feel the movement is protesting that "they have money and we dont, fuck them".

This, OBJECTIVELY, is just not true. AT ALL.

This is something you have manufactured subjectively from your own point of view (ego).

The POINT of the movement, the ENTIRE GOAL, is to raise the awareness of the issue that 1% of the population controls an exponentially disproportionate amount of the resources, and the mechanisms that control them, by completely GAMING THE SYSTEM in their favor.

That's all protests do, that's all that they have ever done.

so they are protesting something everyone knows happens, with no plan or idea to change these issues or the system.

without having a plan, or idea, or an agenda to push then you will end up with legislation that on the surface looks good, but truly changes nothing or makes matters worse. thats all im saying. protest it fine, i agree the system is fucked and needs changing, but to protest with no goal or idea as to what you want changed is pointless and probably harmful to the very protest you are making.

the protests are already losing support and being shut down, mainly because they have nothing to rally behind and nothing to garner massive public support from. people saying "i agree with the fact that the system is fucked" arent going to be willing to actively support a movement with no goal or plan.

so yea, still stupid.

unpro wrote:so they are protesting something everyone knows happens, with no plan or idea to change these issues or the system.

without having a plan, or idea, or an agenda to push then you will end up with legislation that on the surface looks good, but truly changes nothing or makes matters worse. thats all im saying. protest it fine, i agree the system is fucked and needs changing, but to protest with no goal or idea as to what you want changed is pointless and probably harmful to the very protest you are making.

the protests are already losing support and being shut down, mainly because they have nothing to rally behind and nothing to garner massive public support from. people saying "i agree with the fact that the system is fucked" arent going to be willing to actively support a movement with no goal or plan.

so yea, still stupid.

Of course there are proposals and ideas that have been proposed. Like any movement there are loads of different ideas that have been tossed around. But there are still core ideals which everyone can agree on. Such as, eradicating lobbying in the current form that is rampant and destructive in America. Or holding the people responsible for the past economic meltdown - no convictions, investigations, etc. have been conducted thus far, while unemployment among honest, hard-working Americans soar. Throw an African-American in prison for 15 years for stealing $100 (not joking), but zero investigation into the men who knowingly fucked our economy, and then received bonuses.

Those two come to mind immediately.

If you actually want to learn, feel free to hear it from this Columbia professor who visited Wall Street:

[youtube]H8svbm4WYmU[/youtube]

You're a pawn standing up for those who exploit you. It's sad to see you so against a movement that is, at very least, trying to bring to light issues that need to be in the public limelight.

unpro wrote:so they are protesting something everyone knows happens, with no plan or idea to change these issues or the system.

Not true. Once again, you are basing this on a total leap in logic that you have made from your own perspective (ego).

unpro wrote: without having a plan, or idea, or an agenda to push then you will end up with legislation that on the surface looks good, but truly changes nothing or makes matters worse. thats all im saying. protest it fine, i agree the system is fucked and needs changing, but to protest with no goal or idea as to what you want changed is pointless and probably harmful to the very protest you are making.

Agenda's are for political or cultural campaigns. This is not one of those, yet. Protests are ideological public statements, in this case, for the purpose of social-awareness (often in hopes of inspiring political or cultural campaigns).

unpro wrote: the protests are already losing support and being shut down, mainly because they have nothing to rally behind and nothing to garner massive public support from. people saying "i agree with the fact that the system is fucked" arent going to be willing to actively support a movement with no goal or plan.

This just isn't fucking true. You are consistently making subjective, opinion based reactions to objective arguments.

Stop it.

For a perspective on my ego, there is plenty that you are saying that I would most often agree with. For one, I'm not wasting any of my time protesting. I'm lucky and have a job that puts me on the front lines of such fights. As counter-intuitive as protesting is for someone like me, it's not for people who don't have the access I do. And the more people that they reach, the easier my job (actually changing shit) is.

unpro wrote: so yea, still stupid.

Well argued....

Fact is, unpro gets his information from sources that are mutually exclusive to Alex's or Sears's, and nobody is going to concede anything. All anyone does is get more and more entrenched in his preexisting opinions.

However, I looked up the numbers, and the Iraq War protests were many, many times larger than the OWS protests

Rob wrote:Fact is, unpro gets his information from sources that are mutually exclusive to Alex's or Sears's, and nobody is going to concede anything. All anyone does is get more and more entrenched in his preexisting opinions.

However, I looked up the numbers, and the Iraq War protests were many, many times larger than the OWS protests

I'd be surprised - are you counting the movement solely on Wall Street, or the participation that has occurred among dozens of other cities in the United States and in Europe, too?

Just for the record, I'm not saying it's not possible or even plausible. I'd simply be surprised as I know this movement has spread across the country to other cities and other countries.

i get info from a variety of sources.

ill watch the vid later, but from the little bit i listened to it basically sounds like hes regurgitating what libertarians have been saying for years. that might change past the few minutes i listened.

Yeah I know you do. Everyone says that and they're not lying.

Rob wrote:Fact is, unpro gets his information from sources that are mutually exclusive to Alex's or Sears's, and nobody is going to concede anything. All anyone does is get more and more entrenched in his preexisting opinions.

However, I looked up the numbers, and the Iraq War protests were many, many times larger than the OWS protests

Oh I agree with you on that front. It just frustrates me (because of my ego) when people are dismissive to something that is actually a good thing because they don't feel special from it. I think that's a demon we would all be best served getting over right quick.

I'm not trying to win anything, I just like pointing shit out in hopes that maybe some people think different.

You won't succeed when it comes to unpro though. I've already gone over climate change with him. HOPELESS.

Rob wrote:You won't succeed when it comes to unpro though. I've already gone over climate change with him. HOPELESS.

i accept humans might play a slight role in global warming, but based on studies from CERN and NASA i tend to disagree that we are responsible to the level that is said we are. i dont see how basing my opinions on scientific evidence from 2 of the best resources for environmental studies is hopeless.


either way, i dont wanna watch a 20min vid when a friend is over. ill get back to this later.

acetamino wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood

Corporations are people, bro.

unpro wrote:i get info from a variety of sources.

ill watch the vid later, but from the little bit i listened to it basically sounds like hes regurgitating what libertarians have been saying for years. that might change past the few minutes i listened.

Libertarians should love this movement, honestly. Last time I checked, they were against a government that granted special favors to corporations, and corporate corruption. Why this movement has been labeled as a solely liberal movement is absolutely beyond me. It just goes to show how stupid everyone is as they judge the worthiness of a cause based on the political leanings of its participants rather than the merits of its intent.

That being said, much of this movement is not aligned with libertarianism, but there's still much middle ground.

unpro wrote:
i accept humans might play a slight role in global warming, but based on studies from CERN and NASA i tend to disagree that we are responsible to the level that is said we are. i dont see how basing my opinions on scientific evidence from 2 of the best resources for environmental studies is hopeless.

I'll address this tomorrow. Wait why am I getting suckered into the same thing I just preached against?

Since we're talking numbers...

alex kirk wrote:

unpro wrote:i get info from a variety of sources.

ill watch the vid later, but from the little bit i listened to it basically sounds like hes regurgitating what libertarians have been saying for years. that might change past the few minutes i listened.

Libertarians should love this movement, honestly. Last time I checked, they were against a government that granted special favors to corporations, and corporate corruption. Why this movement has been labeled as a solely liberal movement is absolutely beyond me. It just goes to show how stupid everyone is as they judge the worthiness of a cause based on the political leanings of its participants rather than the merits of its intent.

That being said, much of this movement is not aligned with libertarianism, but there's still much middle ground.

probably because the majority of the reporting and the people that get interviewed have absolutely no clue what they are talking about and seem to be demanding free shit while not actually having an opinion or idea based on rational thought.

i pretty much watched all the vid, and yea.. that guys a closet libertarian.

either way, if you guys want perhaps not the best choice but at least an honest choice, vote ron paul. he might not be the sanest on the board, but he is at least mostly honest, which is more than can be said for any other person running for president right now.

unpro wrote:probably because the majority of the reporting and the people that get interviewed have absolutely no clue what they are talking about and seem to be demanding free shit while not actually having an opinion or idea based on rational thought.

And who is at fault there? The media companies? Who controls them? Oh...yeah...

i pretty much watched all the vid, and yea.. that guys a closet libertarian.

Dude is an uber liberal...He isn't remotely libertarian, at least not in the economic sphere. He expresses his support for Obama, his appreciation for Sweden and other socialist nations, is for aiding other nations (like Haiti), is an environmentalist, etc.

either way, if you guys want perhaps not the best choice but at least an honest choice, vote ron paul. he might not be the sanest on the board, but he is at least mostly honest, which is more than can be said for any other person running for president right now.

For personal liberty, anti-choice, and against a federal mandate that looks at homosexuals as equal to heterosexuals under the law (he's okay with leaving that up to the states), okay with people dying who can't afford chemotherapy.

Joke. Jokejokejoke. Big joke. Huge joke. No thanks.

Is the NASA article you're referring to unpro the one by Roy Spencer? Because if it is, I can tell you the article has zero merit. I'll start with this nice tidbit as a preview:

It's not a NASA report.