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i hope you enjoy this as much as i do.

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AP is the barry sanders of his generation, a inhuman talent wasted on a crappy team. respect jared allen though

pyrite wrote:AP is the barry sanders of his generation, a inhuman talent wasted on a crappy team. respect jared allen though

No..just no.

pyrite wrote:AP is the barry sanders of his generation, a inhuman talent wasted on a crappy team. respect jared allen though

YOU'RE an inhuman talent wasted on a crappy team. Wait...I think I went the wrong way with that one.

pyrite wrote:AP is the barry sanders of his generation, a inhuman talent wasted on a crappy team. respect jared allen though

crappy team?? AP has had an outstanding defense since he was drafted and we currently have a lot of pieces on offense. i would say minus the quarter back position, we are one of the top 10 teams in the league. if you plug in a top 10 QB and maybe a quality OC, we are a super bowl contender.

but i do agree with your more general point that AP's prime years are (or already have) been wasted due to incompetence at the QB position.

not to say i support ponder, but this kind of video with very selective clips can be made about even the best of quarterbacks. half of that clip was clearly communication issues between him and the WR which could very well be the WRs fault. but the other half are throws that are horribly off target and should count against him. i just wish i knew what it was like to be a packers fan, or a colts fan, or a patriots fan.. which is to grow up never knowing what it is like to have a below average QB leading your team. since ive been alive the only QB that really did anything was warren moon and we only had him for 2 years. culpepper had a few good years in there stats wise but never had the ability to truly lead a team to victory or in the playoffs. BUT it could be a lot worse. its also a nice consolation prize to be able to watch some of the most fun, entertaining, and talented players of our generation at other positions such as cris carter, randy moss, randle mcdaniel, jared allen, kevin williams, matt birk, john randle, chad greenway, percy harvin etc

thundercunt wrote:

pyrite wrote:AP is the barry sanders of his generation, a inhuman talent wasted on a crappy team. respect jared allen though

No..just no.

i also am not sure what you mean by your response. if you are saying no to the comparison, then you are nuts. AP is easily on sanders' level if you want to talk about his place in nfl history.

sevEN wrote:

pyrite wrote:AP is the barry sanders of his generation, a inhuman talent wasted on a crappy team. respect jared allen though

crappy team?? AP has had an outstanding defense since he was drafted and we currently have a lot of pieces on offense. i would say minus the quarter back position, we are one of the top 10 teams in the league. if you plug in a top 10 QB and maybe a quality OC, we are a super bowl contender.

but i do agree with your more general point that AP's prime years are (or already have) been wasted due to incompetence at the QB position.

not to say i support ponder, but this kind of video with very selective clips can be made about even the best of quarterbacks. half of that clip was clearly communication issues between him and the WR which could very well be the WRs fault. but the other half are throws that are horribly off target and should count against him. i just wish i knew what it was like to be a packers fan, or a colts fan, or a patriots fan.. which is to grow up never knowing what it is like to have a below average QB leading your team. since ive been alive the only QB that really did anything was warren moon and we only had him for 2 years. culpepper had a few good years in there stats wise but never had the ability to truly lead a team to victory or in the playoffs. BUT it could be a lot worse. its also a nice consolation prize to be able to watch some of the most fun, entertaining, and talented players of our generation at other positions such as cris carter, randy moss, randle mcdaniel, jared allen, kevin williams, matt birk, john randle, chad greenway, percy harvin etc

You had Brett Favre in one of his best seasons!

knockout wrote:

sevEN wrote:

pyrite wrote:AP is the barry sanders of his generation, a inhuman talent wasted on a crappy team. respect jared allen though

crappy team?? AP has had an outstanding defense since he was drafted and we currently have a lot of pieces on offense. i would say minus the quarter back position, we are one of the top 10 teams in the league. if you plug in a top 10 QB and maybe a quality OC, we are a super bowl contender.

but i do agree with your more general point that AP's prime years are (or already have) been wasted due to incompetence at the QB position.

not to say i support ponder, but this kind of video with very selective clips can be made about even the best of quarterbacks. half of that clip was clearly communication issues between him and the WR which could very well be the WRs fault. but the other half are throws that are horribly off target and should count against him. i just wish i knew what it was like to be a packers fan, or a colts fan, or a patriots fan.. which is to grow up never knowing what it is like to have a below average QB leading your team. since ive been alive the only QB that really did anything was warren moon and we only had him for 2 years. culpepper had a few good years in there stats wise but never had the ability to truly lead a team to victory or in the playoffs. BUT it could be a lot worse. its also a nice consolation prize to be able to watch some of the most fun, entertaining, and talented players of our generation at other positions such as cris carter, randy moss, randle mcdaniel, jared allen, kevin williams, matt birk, john randle, chad greenway, percy harvin etc

You had Brett Favre in one of his best seasons!

It was the best year of my life on earth so far.

damn i didnt expect such a reaction from a basic comment that i felt was just common sense. to the first guy saying no just no, ur nuts if u dont understand where im coming from. and joey i made a simple short statement but yes i meant to say i was mainly focused on ur QB. as bill parcels said, you are what your record says. unfortunately the rules of the current NFL make it so teams are basically as successful as their QB and clearly they arent going anywhere with christian ponder. thats why i made a quick reference of jared allen cuz i do think u guys have a pretty solid defense and before sidney rice and percy harvin left had other weapons too. i def was rooting from them too when brett favre took them to the championship game. i also agree that video could be made about any QB taken outta context.

I used to work in retail. At one of those big box stores that are so ubiquitous now. I took a part time job there to pay some bills while I was in college.
Customers were rude, the pay sucked, and I dealt with managers who were at best unpleasant. I guess that's par for the course at a place like that.
But I worked there for two years. What kept me going back several times a week wasn't my strong work ethic or a desire to help people find where the "Bed In a Bag" display was. What kept me going back was Crystal.
Crystal was a tall, lanky blonde who worked the evening/night shift full time. She wasn't particularly attractive - not any moreso than any of the college girls I saw every day. But there was something about her. Maybe it was how, despite being thin, she had a nice ass that filled out the generic khaki-colored jeans she wore every day. But there was a seriousness about her, a "I need to be here and do this job well" attitude that most of us just didn't have. And I found out why. She had a 6 year old son she was supporting by herself.
I'd barely tasted the "freedom" of moving out of my parents' house. The worst thing I had to worry about was doing laundry on a regular basis. And yet here I was crushing on a woman my same age who had a kid and a thankless full time job. Maybe what I really saw in her was the faint furrows that such overbearing responsibility had begun to mark on her face. The same creases I saw in my mom's face as I grew up.
We became close friends after awhile. She was used to most of the employees her age working there for just a few months and she told me it was nice to meet someone who could stick around. We took our lunch breaks together. But it wasn't until I had worked there for a year that things got more serious.
The first time Crystal led me by hand into the women's employee restroom, I had no idea what I was in for. I was trying to work out the logistics of how we were going to have sex in that tiny stall without making a lot of noise when she dropped her pants and sat on the toilet. "Watch me."
I don't think I had ever actually watched a woman take a shit before. She did this delightful nose scrunch thing with each undulation of her bowels. She looked at me with the relief a person with a long-held, dark secret might have upon sharing for the first time with another person.
When the wave of stench hit my nose, it was odd. I expected to be repulsed by what I smelled, but the obscenity, the earthiness of it aroused me. I realized that this was more intimate than anything I had ever shared with another human being. People spend their whole lives fucking another person, but rarely do they get to see their partner at their most vulnerable.
Over the next few months, Crystal amazed me with her bowel regularity. It was almost as if she memorized our work schedule and planned her diet accordingly so that she could surprise me with a new fecal adventure every time.
I'm married now to another woman I met in college. I have a kid of my own. I keep a steady job, take my kid to the park, pay my bills. I go through the motions. From all outside appearances, I'm a happy, successful guy. But few know about how terribly I want to break away from it all and watch a beautiful woman take a shit in a stall at a large retail store.

moosh wrote:I used to work in retail. At one of those big box stores that are so ubiquitous now. I took a part time job there to pay some bills while I was in college.
Customers were rude, the pay sucked, and I dealt with managers who were at best unpleasant. I guess that's par for the course at a place like that.
But I worked there for two years. What kept me going back several times a week wasn't my strong work ethic or a desire to help people find where the "Bed In a Bag" display was. What kept me going back was Crystal.
Crystal was a tall, lanky blonde who worked the evening/night shift full time. She wasn't particularly attractive - not any moreso than any of the college girls I saw every day. But there was something about her. Maybe it was how, despite being thin, she had a nice ass that filled out the generic khaki-colored jeans she wore every day. But there was a seriousness about her, a "I need to be here and do this job well" attitude that most of us just didn't have. And I found out why. She had a 6 year old son she was supporting by herself.
I'd barely tasted the "freedom" of moving out of my parents' house. The worst thing I had to worry about was doing laundry on a regular basis. And yet here I was crushing on a woman my same age who had a kid and a thankless full time job. Maybe what I really saw in her was the faint furrows that such overbearing responsibility had begun to mark on her face. The same creases I saw in my mom's face as I grew up.
We became close friends after awhile. She was used to most of the employees her age working there for just a few months and she told me it was nice to meet someone who could stick around. We took our lunch breaks together. But it wasn't until I had worked there for a year that things got more serious.
The first time Crystal led me by hand into the women's employee restroom, I had no idea what I was in for. I was trying to work out the logistics of how we were going to have sex in that tiny stall without making a lot of noise when she dropped her pants and sat on the toilet. "Watch me."
I don't think I had ever actually watched a woman take a shit before. She did this delightful nose scrunch thing with each undulation of her bowels. She looked at me with the relief a person with a long-held, dark secret might have upon sharing for the first time with another person.
When the wave of stench hit my nose, it was odd. I expected to be repulsed by what I smelled, but the obscenity, the earthiness of it aroused me. I realized that this was more intimate than anything I had ever shared with another human being. People spend their whole lives fucking another person, but rarely do they get to see their partner at their most vulnerable.
Over the next few months, Crystal amazed me with her bowel regularity. It was almost as if she memorized our work schedule and planned her diet accordingly so that she could surprise me with a new fecal adventure every time.
I'm married now to another woman I met in college. I have a kid of my own. I keep a steady job, take my kid to the park, pay my bills. I go through the motions. From all outside appearances, I'm a happy, successful guy. But few know about how terribly I want to break away from it all and watch a beautiful woman take a shit in a stall at a large retail store.

moosh wrote:I used to work in retail. At one of those big box stores that are so ubiquitous now. I took a part time job there to pay some bills while I was in college.
Customers were rude, the pay sucked, and I dealt with managers who were at best unpleasant. I guess that's par for the course at a place like that.
But I worked there for two years. What kept me going back several times a week wasn't my strong work ethic or a desire to help people find where the "Bed In a Bag" display was. What kept me going back was Crystal.
Crystal was a tall, lanky blonde who worked the evening/night shift full time. She wasn't particularly attractive - not any moreso than any of the college girls I saw every day. But there was something about her. Maybe it was how, despite being thin, she had a nice ass that filled out the generic khaki-colored jeans she wore every day. But there was a seriousness about her, a "I need to be here and do this job well" attitude that most of us just didn't have. And I found out why. She had a 6 year old son she was supporting by herself.
I'd barely tasted the "freedom" of moving out of my parents' house. The worst thing I had to worry about was doing laundry on a regular basis. And yet here I was crushing on a woman my same age who had a kid and a thankless full time job. Maybe what I really saw in her was the faint furrows that such overbearing responsibility had begun to mark on her face. The same creases I saw in my mom's face as I grew up.
We became close friends after awhile. She was used to most of the employees her age working there for just a few months and she told me it was nice to meet someone who could stick around. We took our lunch breaks together. But it wasn't until I had worked there for a year that things got more serious.
The first time Crystal led me by hand into the women's employee restroom, I had no idea what I was in for. I was trying to work out the logistics of how we were going to have sex in that tiny stall without making a lot of noise when she dropped her pants and sat on the toilet. "Watch me."
I don't think I had ever actually watched a woman take a shit before. She did this delightful nose scrunch thing with each undulation of her bowels. She looked at me with the relief a person with a long-held, dark secret might have upon sharing for the first time with another person.
When the wave of stench hit my nose, it was odd. I expected to be repulsed by what I smelled, but the obscenity, the earthiness of it aroused me. I realized that this was more intimate than anything I had ever shared with another human being. People spend their whole lives fucking another person, but rarely do they get to see their partner at their most vulnerable.
Over the next few months, Crystal amazed me with her bowel regularity. It was almost as if she memorized our work schedule and planned her diet accordingly so that she could surprise me with a new fecal adventure every time.
I'm married now to another woman I met in college. I have a kid of my own. I keep a steady job, take my kid to the park, pay my bills. I go through the motions. From all outside appearances, I'm a happy, successful guy. But few know about how terribly I want to break away from it all and watch a beautiful woman take a shit in a stall at a large retail store.

So happy you're back!

sevEN wrote:

thundercunt wrote:

pyrite wrote:AP is the barry sanders of his generation, a inhuman talent wasted on a crappy team. respect jared allen though

No..just no.

i also am not sure what you mean by your response. if you are saying no to the comparison, then you are nuts. AP is easily on sanders' level if you want to talk about his place in nfl history.

No.. just no.

don't you see? he's *easily* on the level of greatest running back in the history of the game.

scorch- wrote:don't you see? he's *easily* on the level of greatest running back in the history of the game.

labeling barry as "the greatest running back in the history of the game", which is your own personal assesment, is highly debatable. but they're both in the conversation for top 5 so that is what i mean by same category

You want to talk QB pain, talk to Bills fans. Try dealing with JP Losman for 3-4 years, in the midst of a decade-long quest for a QB that might just turn out to not be awful.

escher wrote:You want to talk QB pain, talk to Bills fans. Try dealing with JP Losman for 3-4 years, in the midst of a decade-long quest for a QB that might just turn out to not be awful.

Browns fans would like to speak with you.

sevEN wrote:

scorch- wrote:don't you see? he's *easily* on the level of greatest running back in the history of the game.

labeling barry as "the greatest running back in the history of the game", which is your own personal assesment, is highly debatable. but they're both in the conversation for top 5 so that is what i mean by same category

No..just no.

moosh wrote:I used to work in retail. At one of those big box stores that are so ubiquitous now. I took a part time job there to pay some bills while I was in college.
Customers were rude, the pay sucked, and I dealt with managers who were at best unpleasant. I guess that's par for the course at a place like that.
But I worked there for two years. What kept me going back several times a week wasn't my strong work ethic or a desire to help people find where the "Bed In a Bag" display was. What kept me going back was Crystal.
Crystal was a tall, lanky blonde who worked the evening/night shift full time. She wasn't particularly attractive - not any moreso than any of the college girls I saw every day. But there was something about her. Maybe it was how, despite being thin, she had a nice ass that filled out the generic khaki-colored jeans she wore every day. But there was a seriousness about her, a "I need to be here and do this job well" attitude that most of us just didn't have. And I found out why. She had a 6 year old son she was supporting by herself.
I'd barely tasted the "freedom" of moving out of my parents' house. The worst thing I had to worry about was doing laundry on a regular basis. And yet here I was crushing on a woman my same age who had a kid and a thankless full time job. Maybe what I really saw in her was the faint furrows that such overbearing responsibility had begun to mark on her face. The same creases I saw in my mom's face as I grew up.
We became close friends after awhile. She was used to most of the employees her age working there for just a few months and she told me it was nice to meet someone who could stick around. We took our lunch breaks together. But it wasn't until I had worked there for a year that things got more serious.
The first time Crystal led me by hand into the women's employee restroom, I had no idea what I was in for. I was trying to work out the logistics of how we were going to have sex in that tiny stall without making a lot of noise when she dropped her pants and sat on the toilet. "Watch me."
I don't think I had ever actually watched a woman take a shit before. She did this delightful nose scrunch thing with each undulation of her bowels. She looked at me with the relief a person with a long-held, dark secret might have upon sharing for the first time with another person.
When the wave of stench hit my nose, it was odd. I expected to be repulsed by what I smelled, but the obscenity, the earthiness of it aroused me. I realized that this was more intimate than anything I had ever shared with another human being. People spend their whole lives fucking another person, but rarely do they get to see their partner at their most vulnerable.
Over the next few months, Crystal amazed me with her bowel regularity. It was almost as if she memorized our work schedule and planned her diet accordingly so that she could surprise me with a new fecal adventure every time.
I'm married now to another woman I met in college. I have a kid of my own. I keep a steady job, take my kid to the park, pay my bills. I go through the motions. From all outside appearances, I'm a happy, successful guy. But few know about how terribly I want to break away from it all and watch a beautiful woman take a shit in a stall at a large retail store.

KQoJo81lujk

Seriously though, when we're talking about GOAT, Peterson maybe sneaks into the top 25, but he's only there because he's a physical freak, as he's got nothing on the rest of the guys as far as mastering the art/skill of the position.

Walter Payton, Jim Brown, Franco Harris, Emmit Smith, Marcus Allen, Thurman Thomas, Barry Sanders et al all had that.

AP, not so much.

I think when you're talking GOAT, you need to include Bo Jackson in Tecmo Bowl. That unstoppable force has never been matched.

Go Lions!

Sears wrote:Seriously though, when we're talking about GOAT, Peterson maybe sneaks into the top 25, but he's only there because he's a physical freak, as he's got nothing on the rest of the guys as far as mastering the art/skill of the position.

Walter Payton, Jim Brown, Franco Harris, Emmit Smith, Marcus Allen, Thurman Thomas, Barry Sanders et al all had that.

AP, not so much.

lol franco harris seriously? thurman thomas? these guys are not even close to being considered in the GOAT conversation or the adrian peterson conversation. i mean, there are plenty of guys i would put on a list like yours before including a THURMAN THOMAS bro. the guy never broke 1500 yds rushing and had double digit touchdowns once in 13 seasons. AP has 83 total touchdowns in 6 seasons to thurman's 88 in 13 seasons. AP has only scored less than 12 rushing TD's once in his career, and he had 10 that season. L O L. and franco harris? his best season doesnt even come close to AP's worst season lmfao. you're insane. marcus allen.... surpassed 1k yards rushing in 3 of his 16 nfl seasons.

and i dont even know what to say about that art/skill comment. you either don't know how to judge "skill" or we aren't watching the same player.

sevEN wrote:lol franco harris seriously? thurman thomas? these guys are not even close to being considered in the GOAT conversation or the adrian peterson conversation. i mean, there are plenty of guys i would put on a list like yours before including a THURMAN THOMAS bro. the guy never broke 1500 yds rushing and had double digit touchdowns once in 13 seasons. AP has 83 total touchdowns in 6 seasons to thurman's 88 in 13 seasons. AP has only scored less than 12 rushing TD's once in his career, and he had 10 that season. L O L. and franco harris? his best season doesnt even come close to AP's worst season lmfao. you're insane. marcus allen.... surpassed 1k yards rushing in 3 of his 16 nfl seasons.

and i dont even know what to say about that art/skill comment. you either don't know how to judge "skill" or we aren't watching the same player.

Franco Harris played fullback... and if he isn't near the top of your list of GOAT running backs then it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about and have no sense of the history of the game of football. Franco is a legend.

While career statistics are an important metric to consider, they can only tell part of the story given the context of a players career and their impact (or lack thereof) on the game.

Peterson is a great player, but mostly because he is such a physical freak, not because he's so much better than everyone else at his position. No player is perfect, but AP has plenty of flaws (whether his fans like to admit or not) that have actually held him back quite a bit. He's a freak physically, but he tends to get lazy with the ball and cradle it away from his body, which is probably why he struggled so much with fumbles earlier in his career, accumulating 26 fumbles in his first 6 seasons. Although he has showed a great deal of improvement the last 4 seasons, we are one game into the season and he's already lost one. But more importantly than this is the fact that he relies on his physical ability so much that he often loses spacial awareness and leaves his body in awkward positions, leaving him vulnerable to serious injury.

It's this intangible skill that doesn't show up on the stat sheet that defines a players impact on gameday, on his team, and on the game itself throughout his career. The Vikings would be a lot better team, perhaps even with multiple super bowl titles by now, and AP would be a hands down hall of famer if he wasn't injured so often because of his inability to limit the amount of awkward contact he takes every game.

Example:

p7pkWFZZDhM&start=8

Poor spacial awareness, doesn't keep his eyes down field so he can't avoid contact, puts himself in a bad position physically, tries to extend the play with only his physical ability even though the play is over, and on top of that doesn't secure the ball and the result is an easy score for the defense. This hurts his team, this isn't GOAT material:

49wEr2le4G0&start=1

If you're going to use Fantasy Football statistics to make your argument for GOAT, you're gonna have a bad time.

All of the people I listed belong on the GOAT list, and AP doesn't (yet). I'm sorry. That's just reality. I even left out greats like Gale Sayers, Eric Dickerson, Earl Campbell, Tony Dorsett, Curtis Martin, or even LaDainian Tomlinson, all of which belong much higher up the list than AP not because they were fantasy football killers, but because they changed the game in their respective eras. Did you even know who Franco was or anything about his career? Or did you just look up his stats compared to AP?

Google "greatest running backs of all time". I imagine you'll find that the internet agrees with many of the players I've listed.

If AP's career were over today, his career would match up quite well with that of Terrell Davis, except that he was better and won 2 super bowls. AP is Terrell Davis 2.0. He's an outstanding athlete and player, but GOAT...?

You're dreaming.

Sears wrote:

sevEN wrote:lol franco harris seriously? thurman thomas? these guys are not even close to being considered in the GOAT conversation or the adrian peterson conversation. i mean, there are plenty of guys i would put on a list like yours before including a THURMAN THOMAS bro. the guy never broke 1500 yds rushing and had double digit touchdowns once in 13 seasons. AP has 83 total touchdowns in 6 seasons to thurman's 88 in 13 seasons. AP has only scored less than 12 rushing TD's once in his career, and he had 10 that season. L O L. and franco harris? his best season doesnt even come close to AP's worst season lmfao. you're insane. marcus allen.... surpassed 1k yards rushing in 3 of his 16 nfl seasons.

and i dont even know what to say about that art/skill comment. you either don't know how to judge "skill" or we aren't watching the same player.

Franco Harris played fullback... and if he isn't near the top of your list of GOAT running backs then it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about and have no sense of the history of the game of football. Franco is a legend.

While career statistics are an important metric to consider, they can only tell part of the story given the context of a players career and their impact (or lack thereof) on the game.

Peterson is a great player, but mostly because he is such a physical freak, not because he's so much better than everyone else at his position. No player is perfect, but AP has plenty of flaws (whether his fans like to admit or not) that have actually held him back quite a bit. He's a freak physically, but he tends to get lazy with the ball and cradle it away from his body, which is probably why he struggled so much with fumbles earlier in his career, accumulating 26 fumbles in his first 6 seasons. Although he has showed a great deal of improvement the last 4 seasons, we are one game into the season and he's already lost one. But more importantly than this is the fact that he relies on his physical ability so much that he often loses spacial awareness and leaves his body in awkward positions, leaving him vulnerable to serious injury.

It's this intangible skill that doesn't show up on the stat sheet that defines a players impact on gameday, on his team, and on the game itself throughout his career. The Vikings would be a lot better team, perhaps even with multiple super bowl titles by now, and AP would be a hands down hall of famer if he wasn't injured so often because of his inability to limit the amount of awkward contact he takes every game.

Example:

p7pkWFZZDhM&start=8

Poor spacial awareness, doesn't keep his eyes down field so he can't avoid contact, puts himself in a bad position physically, tries to extend the play with only his physical ability even though the play is over, and on top of that doesn't secure the ball and the result is an easy score for the defense. This hurts his team, this isn't GOAT material:

49wEr2le4G0&start=1

If you're going to use Fantasy Football statistics to make your argument for GOAT, you're gonna have a bad time.

All of the people I listed belong on the GOAT list, and AP doesn't (yet). I'm sorry. That's just reality. I even left out greats like Gale Sayers, Eric Dickerson, Earl Campbell, Tony Dorsett, Curtis Martin, or even LaDainian Tomlinson, all of which belong much higher up the list than AP not because they were fantasy football killers, but because they changed the game in their respective eras. Did you even know who Franco was or anything about his career? Or did you just look up his stats compared to AP?

Google "greatest running backs of all time". I imagine you'll find that the internet agrees with many of the players I've listed.

If AP's career were over today, his career would match up quite well with that of Terrell Davis, except that he was better and won 2 super bowls. AP is Terrell Davis 2.0. He's an outstanding athlete and player, but GOAT...?

You're dreaming.

first thing, i am a football historian and would be willing to go out on a limb and say i know more about it than anyone around here. i may be wrong, but that is just how i feel about my knowledge of the game. past and present. and i know franco harris is a legend and i am aware of what he did for the steelers in the 70's. but you can't throw the GOAT title around like it's nothing. when you start talkign about that, you obviously have to shave off some of the great ones. you cant have 20 guys in the top 10 or 10 guys in the top 5... there are going to be some guys that were outstanding football players like harris, or thurman thomas, that are going to get clipped when you start narrowing down the list. and franco is a guy who was great and had his historic moments, but he wasnt even the most legendary on his team at the time. not even close. there is a list of 5-7 guys who you would think of way before franco harris if you brought up "legendary steelers of the 70s". and legendary status is not what i factor in when i am judging the talent of a player or his ability to play the position. so as i said, i do acknowledge that franco was a great HOF back, when you get into the top 10, some guys are going to get squeezed out. you can't have them all in there. franco just doesnt make it in the top 10 conversation.

and while i do understand and acknowledge that stats are not the full picture, they ARE a huge part of the picture and when you are comparing running backs from different eras, with different rules, sometimes the stats become a little more important. especially when AP's numbers are THAT much better than someone elses.. it gets to a point where you say "ok, he matched his career touchdowns in 6 seasons when it took this guy 13 seasons" that becomes a pretty strong clue.

and your argument about peterson being great only because he is a physical freak? i mean... he's only productive cuz he's a big giant strong fast copenhagen who doesnt know shit about what he's doing but he only runs through ppl cuz hes a big fast strong gorilla? it just shows a totoal lack of credit being given to AP and his work ethic. he has an incredible ability to make guys miss 1 on 1. and he can do it by juking you, running through you, or running away from you. that is a talent that only the very best have possessed. his vision is also second to none. he is outstanding at reading the defense and picking the holes and reading his blocks. he is actually very patient and allows his blockers to set up the play and then he cuts and explodes up the field. and ya he had issues holding the ball... but look up how many fumbles walter peyton had in his first 3 seasons in the league. check jim browns fumbles. emmit smiths. i remember researching there are some great backs that you listed that had just as many if not more fumbles in their first 3 years in the league as AP did. but he has since corrected that problem and the fumble last sunday was christian ponder's fault. ponder tripped on his center's foot and was falling backwards and still tried to stick the ball in AP's stomach even though he should have just held onto and fell over. so don't credit AP with that fumble.

and what is wrong with utilizing his physical abilities? You seem to be discrediting him for doing that while also writing off all of his success to the fact that he has unique physical abilities. i think there is nothing wrong with resorting to just brute strength when the play has nothing left but he feels like forcing the issue by not going down and wrestling for a few extra yards. that is part of what makes him special. he wears down defenses physically and mentally. when he doesnt go down like that, or hits guys when he could go down or out of bounds, and requires them to bring 4 guys to tackle him, he is putting something into their head that makes them not want to tackle him. they become weak, tired, and scared. and he becomes more aggressive and stronger. it's just part ofthe style of play that he plays with. i admit it doesnt look pretty or elegant like a gale sayers, or errick dickerson, or LT. the guy is very muscular and looks awkward at times. but that doesnt mean he doesnt have the vision, instincts, or intelligence of an elite RB.

im also wondering why you are bringing the injury thing into the equation. minus the one ACL tear, he has had one other minor injury that he missed 2 or 3 games for back in 2008 i think, but other than that he has played the majority of his games and has played well through injuries. and you saw what he did last year coming off injury so it has not slowed him down.

lets disect his first touchdown of this season while we are throwing videos out there.

6YLaYcMX-7Y

well the first thing i am noticing here is that it is a counter play. requires a lot of patience by the RB. they start out to the right, as the offensive line does, but he takes the hand off and heads left and follows the fullback up the middle. blocked very well the the offensive line. but, as with almost every single run adrian has, there are 9 men in the box and only 8 men to block (5 o lineman, 1 TE, a WR and a fullback). obviously there is going to be 1 man unaccounted for. so, they start right, takes the hand off and heads left. fullback makes a great block up the hole but AP has to cut it upward and to the right once again. great job of reading his blockers. once he's through the hole, there is a free defender who is in the best possible spot to stop this play for a 3 or 4 yard gain. adrian peterson lays an incredible jump step cut on this guy that leaves him looking silly. and that is due to his instincts as a runner and his vision. this play was not made possible by his "physical freakishness" but by his instincts, his ability to cut on a dime, ability to read the defense, and by his skills to simply perform such a cut back. then he takes a few steps up and louis delmas comes into the picture and AP once again side steps and changes his direction enough for delmas to wiff once again in a 1 on 1 situation. at this point, he has not yet utilized his freakish physical stature and has relied only on his vision, his reading of the defense, and his instinctual ability or skill to make guys miss in the hole in a confined space. once delmas is out of the picture, he uses his speed to outrun the entire defense. but he didnt use his size or his strength on this place. only his speed to run away once the play was over. i think there are only a handful of runners who could have made these kind of reads and cuts so quickly and effectively. and the part that makes him great is that he does these kinds of things in a giant body that SHOULD NOT be able to execute them. there have been plenty of strength/size/speed/quickness athletes that have flopped in the NFL but AP has that combination on top of the work ethic, the instincts, the vision, the determination, and other things like that.

also, the play where peterson tore his ACL, how can you put that on HIM?? he was running a trap play up the middle and was doing nothing awkward with his body or the contact he takes. he lowers his shoulder and the guy dives at his knee because he was tired of taking a beating all game going above the waist. i don't see how you can point to that clip and say AP allows awkward contact.

and your play against the packers is not something that happens all the time. nobody has ever stripped AP and returned it for a TD before and most of his fumbles don't happen this way either. they happen, as you brought up, when he is running full speed and holding the ball away from his body. once he gets a guy or 2 on him and he tucks the ball away, he's fine. it was a good play by mathews, and a play that hasn't happened before or after that again. that play is not an ongoing problem in his career.

and i don't need to google any kind of greatest rb of all time list. i can argue with you in person with no computer in front of me and spit out stats and players and rankings with the best of them and you would have to know a shitload to stump me. but one thing i have said before part of my opinion on AP in this kind of discussion is projected throughout a full career. how can i compare a runner who had 13 nfl seasons to AP who has had 6? (and still almost matched his career numbers at that point). i also factor in pure talent into the equation more than others do. i like to ask myself the question of "who would i rather take in their prime to build a team around?" if you would take franco harris over AP, or thurman thomas over AP, or any other guys i can name, then im just glad you are not a GM.

lol, and davis was better than AP? wow... must have been nice to play with john elway, rod smith, ed mcaffrey and shannon sharp in the passing game... plug AP into that offense and he far and away blows out what TD did. one thing you are failing to factor into this judgment of AP is what he has been able to do with the piss poor passing game he has had to work with. the dude has never seen 7 in the box in his life and has constantly been the ONLY offensive player the defense cared about. and what AP did last year after a gruesome major knee injury is something that nobody on your list has ever done.

and for fun, i am going to give you my own list that i think could be argued as top 5 of all time. as i said before in my post, great runners are going to get clipped. you cant fit the franco harrisses, thurman thomases, and marcus allens in the top 5. but here goes:

Walter Payton
Jim Brown
Barry Sanders
Gale Sayers
Emmit Smith (i have to include by default, but i feel he was overrated)
LaDanian Tomlinson
Marshall Faulk
OJ Simpson
Eric Dickerson
Adrian Peterson

Second tier:
Earl Campbell
Tony Dorsett
Marcus Allen
Franco Harris
Marion Motley
Roger Craig
Thurman Thomas
Jim Taylor
Chuck Foreman
John Riggins

and im sure there are a few that i am forgetting. this was all off the top of my head.

While i feel like cambell/dorsett/allen could be placed in that top 10 list somewhere depending on who you ask, it is just too hard to fit guys into a "top 10" kind of system. some greats are gonna get clipped. but i think it's safe to say that it would be very difficult to place anyone from that second tier in the top 5 greatest RBs of all time. there were just way too many greats.

all in all, i think your assessment of AP is off base and you seem to be writing off his talent and accomplishment to "freaky physical ability" which seems a bit unfair to me. but hey, everyone has their opinion. i guess we can revisit in 3 or 4 years and see where we stand after AP does it for a little bit longer.

Vikings suck Joey.

10,665

Missed the 10k word limit on the research paper?

i love talking about football. not even embarrassed about wall of text

sevEN wrote:i love talking about football. not even embarrassed about wall of text

You are 100% biased when it comes to AP, don't understand why people still argue with you about it.

thundercunt wrote:

sevEN wrote:i love talking about football. not even embarrassed about wall of text

You are 100% biased when it comes to AP, don't understand why people still argue with you about it.

i have never said i wasn't at least somewhat biased, but that doesn't make the facts and my points invalid. almost all of what i say can be backed up by stats, videos, and expert opinions. we can meet in vent to discuss it whenever you like if you want to talk football

I find it funny how people will add names in that they confidently say are better players than Adrian Peterson. You watch Adrian Peterson play multiple times a year. How many games have you seen Jim Brown and Franco Harris play? Walter Payton? Come on...

knockout wrote:I find it funny how people will add names in that they confidently say are better players than Adrian Peterson. You watch Adrian Peterson play multiple times a year. How many games have you seen Jim Brown and Franco Harris play? Walter Payton? Come on...

i agree for the most part but some dedicated fans have watched a great deal of old tape and have seen what the backs of the past could do. through old film, reading articles, watching documentaries, and researching stats, one could make a general opinion on a player of the past.

but i agree that it becomes difficult to say a player from Y era is better than player from X era. there are too many factors to consider when debating these kinds of things such as a players surrounding talent, team, coaching, NFL rules of the time, the progression of the passing game and offensive philosophies in general, and the amount of new stadiums that were built on turf. but this is why it is so interesting for me to get into it. i could debate anything football related if i feel strongly enough about it and that doesn't stop at the vikings.

i love debating how i think dan marino is the greatest QB of all time (although the more that peyton adds to his resume, the tougher that decision is for me), how guys like joe montana, tom brady, emmit smith and jerry rice are overrated, or any top 5 or top 10 ranking at any position. and any other bold statements you guys have that i feel are debatable are more than welcome also.

at the end of the day, i enjoy football discussion and i'm hoping that there are no hard feelings here. if you guys are sick of the vikings or AP, lay something else on me. if not, i don't see a reason to come in here and hate

im curious as to why you think jerry rice is over rated? considering his stats are so far ahead of anyone else, its kinda like the gretzky effect, makes him the GOAT by default. (to clarify not saying ur wrong either)

Bo Jackson > AP

ALL DAY

sevEN wrote:

knockout wrote:I find it funny how people will add names in that they confidently say are better players than Adrian Peterson. You watch Adrian Peterson play multiple times a year. How many games have you seen Jim Brown and Franco Harris play? Walter Payton? Come on...

i agree for the most part but some dedicated fans have watched a great deal of old tape and have seen what the backs of the past could do. through old film, reading articles, watching documentaries, and researching stats, one could make a general opinion on a player of the past.

but i agree that it becomes difficult to say a player from Y era is better than player from X era. there are too many factors to consider when debating these kinds of things such as a players surrounding talent, team, coaching, NFL rules of the time, the progression of the passing game and offensive philosophies in general, and the amount of new stadiums that were built on turf. but this is why it is so interesting for me to get into it. i could debate anything football related if i feel strongly enough about it and that doesn't stop at the vikings.

i love debating how i think dan marino is the greatest QB of all time (although the more that peyton adds to his resume, the tougher that decision is for me), how guys like joe montana, tom brady, emmit smith and jerry rice are overrated, or any top 5 or top 10 ranking at any position. and any other bold statements you guys have that i feel are debatable are more than welcome also.

I love Marino and i think he is right there at the top. How can you say Manning is right there and Brady is overrated? Brady has always had less talent around him then Manning and still win's and put's up great numbers. I agree about Smith, he had an amazing team around him. Jerry rice is not overrated at all.

thundercunt wrote:
I love Marino and i think he is right there at the top. How can you say Manning is right there and Brady is overrated? Brady has always had less talent around him then Manning and still win's and put's up great numbers. I agree about Smith, he had an amazing team around him. Jerry rice is not overrated at all.

I would argue that Brady is overrated because he has ALWAYS had MORE talent around him. You have to look at offensive lines rather than skill position players. Brady never got touched, could sit in the pocket forever, and inflate his stats. I know myself , as well as a lot of people who had this view of him, called the Giants to beat them in the SuperBowl when they did, because they were the perfect matchup. They were the only team in the league that had the pass rush to show how difficult life can be for Brady if he doesn't have perfect protection on nearly every play.

Manning, on the other hand, doesn't really show many weaknesses in his game at all. He's probably going to end up breaking all of Favre's records if he plays another healthy 2-3 years, and it's hard to keep him out of the "top x QB" discussions.

knockout wrote:

thundercunt wrote:
I love Marino and i think he is right there at the top. How can you say Manning is right there and Brady is overrated? Brady has always had less talent around him then Manning and still win's and put's up great numbers. I agree about Smith, he had an amazing team around him. Jerry rice is not overrated at all.

I would argue that Brady is overrated because he has ALWAYS had MORE talent around him. You have to look at offensive lines rather than skill position players. Brady never got touched, could sit in the pocket forever, and inflate his stats. I know myself , as well as a lot of people who had this view of him, called the Giants to beat them in the SuperBowl when they did, because they were the perfect matchup. They were the only team in the league that had the pass rush to show how difficult life can be for Brady if he doesn't have perfect protection on nearly every play.

Manning, on the other hand, doesn't really show many weaknesses in his game at all. He's probably going to end up breaking all of Favre's records if he plays another healthy 2-3 years, and it's hard to keep him out of the "top x QB" discussions.

Manning has had some really good olines as well, not to mention Better WR's, RB's, TE's for pretty much his whole career. They are very similar QB's. And they are both up there at the top, i don't think either one is overrated.

pyrite wrote:im curious as to why you think jerry rice is over rated? considering his stats are so far ahead of anyone else, its kinda like the gretzky effect, makes him the GOAT by default. (to clarify not saying ur wrong either)

i am almost forced to agree with the "by default" approach and place rice #1. but i feel like he was a product of a revolutionary system at the time implemented by bill walsh. i also tend to lean towards dominant talent and god given abilities. when i see jerry rice, i see a guy who ran elite routes and a guy who played his best in the most important games and moments. but he was just average to great at pretty much everything else. that is not a bad thing, and his numbers speak for themselves, but he didnt have marvin harrison or steve largent hands, randy moss jumping ability, or deion sanders speed. he also benefited from playing with countless hall of famers on both sides of the ball (montana and young being the most obvious) that a lot of other greats didn't get to experience. but he played a LONG time and was consistently productive for so many years so he was able to put a lot of WR stats out of reach.

i wouldn't dare drop him out of the top 3 and i probably would still put him #1 or #2 if i was forced to make a list. my general opinion on rice when it comes to being the GOAT is that he should not be placed #1 by default and serious consideration should be given to guys like randy moss, cris carter, marvin harrison and in about 4-5 years, calvin johnson. in the end, i can't argue with his status as the greatest WR ever, but imo it is closer than most people believe.

ahhhhhh the manning vs brady. i love this one.

once again though, my "overrated" comment should not be taken out of context. i do not mean to say a guy like jerry rice or tom brady are not incredible players. i just say that they are held slightly higher than what i believe to be true.

first thing i'd like to point out is how well each team did without manning/brady. the colts were year in and year out superbowl contenders for a decade with manning under center. manning goes down, and that team goes 1-15. in 2008 or 2010 (i forget which year) when brady went down for the year with a torn ACL, matt cassel stepped in and won 11 games and that team hardly missed a step. and lets be honest.. cassel is not a good QB by any means. so that right there shows you how important each QB is to their teams.

scott also makes a good point about O line. brady has years to throw most of the time and when he doesn't, he is visibly uncomfortable and his play suffers greatly. manning has never had elite o lines like brady and is able to deliver passes in the face of extreme pressure.

also, and this is the biggest one for me, is that manning calls his own plays. manning IS the offense. the offense is so incredibly dependent on him calling the plays that there is an EXTREME drop off when he missed any games. brady is a puppet of one of the greatest coaches in nfl history bill belichick and to a certain extent a product of the pats unique offensive scheme. manning takes his offense to the broncos and it becomes prolific. i doubt tom brady would be able to bring an offense, run the show on the field, and make any team he goes to a top 3 offense in the nfl like manning has.

i also feel that manning is a more intelligent football mind for a lot of the reasons i just mentioned.

another thing is i think peyton has done a better job in the hurry up and 2 min offense over the years. brady has a way of dinking and dunking into field goal range and letting his kicker seal the deal, while manning does a better job of pushing the ball down the field and finishing the deal by throwing it into the end zone.

one thing i will acknowledge just to be thorough is that manning did always have elite weapons around him. but in his later years with the colts, he showed he could do it with nobodies when his guys left or got hurt.

colts have always had a below average defense as well, while the pats had a championship caliber defense for most of his career, especially during his championship teams.

manning has just done it better for longer and brings more to the table. and his numbers are just so mind blowing that i can't even consider taking brady over manning if i were picking a QB to build a team around.

Next topic: Chip Kelly

thundercunt wrote:Next topic: Chip Kelly

lol, we'll see in a few weeks based on how many of their offensive players are injured.

thundercunt wrote:Next topic: Chip Kelly

ahahahahah i like your style

first thing i think when i think of chip kelly is how perfect the eagles personnel is for his offense. it is a perfect match and vick is the best guy to run it imo. other than "his offense" i really don't know how good he is from a coaching stand point.. but he must be viewed as good enough if he got an nfl head coaching job and his teams at oregon were very fun to watch. the eagles look to be more of the same. they will be very good this year and vick will most likely post career numbers IF he stays healthy.

also, just a little factoid about chip kelly... he and bill belichick are close friends. about 4 years ago, bill belichick met up with kelly to exchange offensive philosophies and talk football. they have been friends for a while so im sure they do anyways, but i am speaking of a reported meeting. and there are striking similarities to the pats offense at times and chip kelly's offense, especially in the tempo. i see the pats implementing a lot of kelly's offense or offensive philosophies in their offense if you pay attention.

sevEN wrote:

thundercunt wrote:Next topic: Chip Kelly

ahahahahah i like your style

first thing i think when i think of chip kelly is how perfect the eagles personnel is for his offense. it is a perfect match and vick is the best guy to run it imo. other than "his offense" i really don't know how good he is from a coaching stand point.. but he must be viewed as good enough if he got an nfl head coaching job and his teams at oregon were very fun to watch. the eagles look to be more of the same. they will be very good this year and vick will most likely post career numbers IF he stays healthy.

also, just a little factoid about chip kelly... he and bill belichick are close friends. about 4 years ago, bill belichick met up with kelly to exchange offensive philosophies and talk football. they have been friends for a while so im sure they do anyways, but i am speaking of a reported meeting. and there are striking similarities to the pats offense at times and chip kelly's offense, especially in the tempo. i see the pats implementing a lot of kelly's offense or offensive philosophies in their offense if you pay attention.

Yeah, they are really good friends. The Pats flew out to Philly like 4 days before the Eagles vs Pats preseason game and they practiced together up untill game time, Chip & Bill were seen together a lot during them few days.

Sears wrote:Seriously though, when we're talking about GOAT, Peterson maybe sneaks into the top 25, but he's only there because he's a physical freak, as he's got nothing on the rest of the guys as far as mastering the art/skill of the position.

Walter Payton, Jim Brown, Franco Harris, Emmit Smith, Marcus Allen, Thurman Thomas, Barry Sanders et al all had that.

AP, not so much.

YES THURMAN THOMAS, YOU MY BOY BLUE

sevEN wrote:

Sears wrote:Seriously though, when we're talking about GOAT, Peterson maybe sneaks into the top 25, but he's only there because he's a physical freak, as he's got nothing on the rest of the guys as far as mastering the art/skill of the position.

Walter Payton, Jim Brown, Franco Harris, Emmit Smith, Marcus Allen, Thurman Thomas, Barry Sanders et al all had that.

AP, not so much.

lol franco harris seriously? thurman thomas? these guys are not even close to being considered in the GOAT conversation or the adrian peterson conversation. i mean, there are plenty of guys i would put on a list like yours before including a THURMAN THOMAS bro. the guy never broke 1500 yds rushing and had double digit touchdowns once in 13 seasons. AP has 83 total touchdowns in 6 seasons to thurman's 88 in 13 seasons. AP has only scored less than 12 rushing TD's once in his career, and he had 10 that season. L O L. and franco harris? his best season doesnt even come close to AP's worst season lmfao. you're insane. marcus allen.... surpassed 1k yards rushing in 3 of his 16 nfl seasons.

and i dont even know what to say about that art/skill comment. you either don't know how to judge "skill" or we aren't watching the same player.

If you think AP is better than Thurman Thomas then you clearly are a fucking crackhead joey. FUCK THE VIKINGS

Clearly Barry Sanders left the league before he could be caught cheating, and re-entered the league under a new alias.