The GOAT

sevEN · Post by **sevEN** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:59 am

http://www.nfl.com/videos/auto/0ap20000 ... highlights

sevEN · Post by **sevEN** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:02 am

rams d hasn't allowed more than 65 rushing yds in the past 4 games.

Polak · Post by **Polak** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:39 am

sevEN wrote:rams d hasn't allowed more than 65 rushing yds in the past 4 games.

But they allowed a run td the past 6.

Jerry Ric is the great of all time.

shoguNtw · Post by **shoguNtw** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:14 am

scorch- · Post by **scorch-** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:34 pm

If he hit 500 foot home runs too, he might be a close second.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:57 pm

I got him with the 12th overall pick in my fantasy football draft this year. GFFDPOAT

SKiNnTo · Post by **SKiNnTo** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:03 pm

Another Barry Sanders who will never see a super bowl?

sevEN · Post by **sevEN** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:06 pm

vpaz wrote:
sevEN wrote:http://www.nfl.com/videos/auto/0ap20000 ... highlights

Yeah, about that. Not even close to the GOAT. I think it might be time to loosen your jaws up a bit and release his dick.

not even close? you're dumber than you look if you think he's "not even close". we are watching a guy about to hit 2k yards and maybe break the single season rushing record less than a year after tearing his knee apart. you are watching a legend in the making. take your head out of your dumb ass and just appreciate the fact that you will be able to tell your kids you grew up watching adrian peterson the same way our grandfathers talk about jim brown and walter payton.

scorch- wrote:If he hit 500 foot home runs too, he might be a close second.

we're talking about football brah. i love bo jackson too but he didnt do enough in either sport long enough to be up there, except for maybe being the most physically gifted athlete ever. and if you want to start a 2 sport athlete debate, you have to go with deion sanders by default, who hit over .500 in a world series and won 2 superbowl rings.

Polak wrote:
sevEN wrote:rams d hasn't allowed more than 65 rushing yds in the past 4 games.
But they allowed a run td the past 6.

Jerry Ric is the great of all time.

i honestly was only talking about running backs, but while we're talking about jerry rice, i dont think he is the greatest of all time. just the most productive. it's the same argument i use with emmitt smith. 2 of the most productive players who played with countless HOFers at every position all over the team. AP does what he does with jack shit on the roster for almost his entire career so far. he has done what he has done with 8 in the box his entire career. that alone is mind blowing.

SKiNnTo wrote:Another Barry Sanders who will never see a super bowl?

ehh, maybe maybe not. there are a lot of great players who unfortunately don't see a superbowl. we'll have to see how that one shakes out in about 7-8 years

milo · Post by **milo** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:39 pm

Lionel Messi - 90 goals in a year

G.O.A.T

nunz · Post by **nunz** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:44 pm

milo wrote:Lionel Messi - 90 goals in a year

G.O.A.T

Lionel Messi World Cup Games 8, World Cup Goals 1. Nothing special, move along. It clearly shows that it pays to play in Spain and their terrible league.

james- · Post by **james-** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:59 pm

an interesting thread on 1911?

IMPOSSIBLE!

Oh and don't even start with the Bo vs. Prime Time arguments, they always end up at the same conclusion - the two shouldn't be compared.

sevEN · Post by **sevEN** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:06 am

vpaz wrote:
You already claimed him to be the GOAT, dipshit. Which is completely false, btw. There is plenty of other RB's who are and were better than AP, not to mention as many carries as AP gets which is more then 90% of every runningback in the NFL, there should be no reason why he can't put up numbers like that. There is no point in arguing with you because you've had AP's dick in your mouth for so long.

he will be, and i'm obviously a big fan, so i already call him that. but you cant tell me there is anyone in the game better tha adrian peterson. there hasnt been since he entered the league. and who cares about his carries? there are plenty of RBs that get much more carries than he does dude. and there is "no reason why" he cant put up numbers like that? how about having one of the league's worst passing games over the past 5-6 years (minus 2009 with brett favre, in which he ran for 18 TDs), with some of the worst quarter back play, and facing nothing but 8 and 9 man fronts. teams totally selling out against the run. and how about his knee being torn apart just 8 months prior to him starting the nfl season and rushing for 100+ and 2 scores, and being on pace to break the nfl single season rushing record less than 12 months removed from the injury? there is a point in arguing with me because i listen to logic and i am also intelligent enough to handle a discussion. but neither of your points are very good

showtime · Post by **showtime** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:40 am

sevEN wrote:
vpaz wrote:
You already claimed him to be the GOAT, dipshit. Which is completely false, btw. There is plenty of other RB's who are and were better than AP, not to mention as many carries as AP gets which is more then 90% of every runningback in the NFL, there should be no reason why he can't put up numbers like that. There is no point in arguing with you because you've had AP's dick in your mouth for so long.
he will be, and i'm obviously a big fan, so i already call him that. but you cant tell me there is anyone in the game better tha adrian peterson. there hasnt been since he entered the league. and who cares about his carries? there are plenty of RBs that get much more carries than he does dude. and there is "no reason why" he cant put up numbers like that? how about having one of the league's worst passing games over the past 5-6 years (minus 2009 with brett favre, in which he ran for 18 TDs), with some of the worst quarter back play, and facing nothing but 8 and 9 man fronts. teams totally selling out against the run. and how about his knee being torn apart just 8 months prior to him starting the nfl season and rushing for 100+ and 2 scores, and being on pace to break the nfl single season rushing record less than 12 months removed from the injury? there is a point in arguing with me because i listen to logic and i am also intelligent enough to handle a discussion. but neither of your points are very good

AP does get a ton of carries, but other than Percy Harvin he is the only other offensive weapon they have so they really don't have a choice. And even with everyone knowing he is getting the ball he still is averaging over 6 ypa so why not give him the ball 25+ times a game? That being said, I wouldn't say AP is the "greatest", but definitely the best RB in the NFL since LT's last year with the Chargers (AP's rookie year). The only person who might give him a run for his money is Arian Foster, but he does have the benefit of a great line and a decent passing game to balance it out.

nunz wrote:
milo wrote:Lionel Messi - 90 goals in a year

G.O.A.T
Lionel Messi World Cup Games 8, World Cup Goals 1. Nothing special, move along. It clearly shows that it pays to play in Spain and their terrible league.

jeSZWNtMKxA

ao_ · Post by **ao_** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:12 am

I am not an avid football fan and really do not follow statistics (actually I think fantasy football is dumb as shit), but I went to the Packers/Vikings game a few weekends ago and Adrian Peterson was unbelievable. He was basically the only thing that kept the Vikings in the game.

hildebrand · Post by **hildebrand** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:15 am

i was about to post to this thread but then i remembered i was canadian.

milo · Post by **milo** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:36 am

scorch- · Post by **scorch-** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:31 pm

sevEN wrote:
vpaz wrote:
You already claimed him to be the GOAT, dipshit. Which is completely false, btw. There is plenty of other RB's who are and were better than AP, not to mention as many carries as AP gets which is more then 90% of every runningback in the NFL, there should be no reason why he can't put up numbers like that. There is no point in arguing with you because you've had AP's dick in your mouth for so long.
he will be, and i'm obviously a big fan, so i already call him that. but you cant tell me there is anyone in the game better tha adrian peterson. there hasnt been since he entered the league. and who cares about his carries? there are plenty of RBs that get much more carries than he does dude. and there is "no reason why" he cant put up numbers like that? how about having one of the league's worst passing games over the past 5-6 years (minus 2009 with brett favre, in which he ran for 18 TDs), with some of the worst quarter back play, and facing nothing but 8 and 9 man fronts. teams totally selling out against the run. and how about his knee being torn apart just 8 months prior to him starting the nfl season and rushing for 100+ and 2 scores, and being on pace to break the nfl single season rushing record less than 12 months removed from the injury? there is a point in arguing with me because i listen to logic and i am also intelligent enough to handle a discussion. but neither of your points are very good

Don't bother arguing with vpaz. Kid's a retard. I haven't followed football since the Rams left LA, but Bo Jackson was the best gg. 4.12 40 at 220 lbs, if it weren't for that freak hip injury...

SKiNnTo · Post by **SKiNnTo** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:23 pm

He can't be the "GOAT" yet, needs more time in the league. And I don't think he'll be in the league in 7-8 years. 3-4 years is the average for an NFL player.

scorch- · Post by **scorch-** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:56 pm

vpaz wrote:Retard that proved you wrong plenty of times. This is the guy that said if everyone stayed in-doors during hurricane sandy there would have been no deaths. What a joke.

The only thing you've proved (and continue to prove now) is your inability to invoke the higher order brain processes required for logic and reasoning.

toxinatoR · Post by **toxinatoR** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:39 pm

Gotta love HGH.

rehpyc · Post by **rehpyc** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:09 am

vpaz wrote:Retard that proved you wrong plenty of times. This is the guy that said if everyone stayed in-doors during hurricane sandy there would have been no deaths. What a joke.

Pretty sure him, myself, and ko merely pointed out that many people died because they either chose to go outside during extreme wind speeds or not evacuate their homes in major flood areas. Learn2read

knockout · Post by **knockout** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:32 am

Why mention carries when AP averages 6.3 YPC? SIX. POINT. THREE. IN THE NFL. WHEN THE OTHER TEAM KNOWS THAT CHRISTIAN PONDER IS YOUR QUARTERBACK.

Also, Dan hasn't followed football since Johnny Unitas retired gg rofl you're old420

Miller` · Post by **Miller`** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:42 am

Bo Jackson was the most talented, but not the GOAT because of that injury. Much like Barry Sanders may have beent he GOAT but quit about three years too soon.

GOAT = Jerry Rice then Walter Payton.

AP has a chance, just needs more time and not get injured again.

By the way, Calvin Johnson has a chance to break the single-season receiving record and also has nothing else going on for him.

showtime · Post by **showtime** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:26 am

Miller` wrote:Bo Jackson was the most talented, but not the GOAT because of that injury. Much like Barry Sanders may have beent he GOAT but quit about three years too soon.

GOAT = Jerry Rice then Walter Payton.

AP has a chance, just needs more time and not get injured again.

By the way, Calvin Johnson has a chance to break the single-season receiving record and also has nothing else going on for him.

+1. I'd put Jim Brown right up there in the greatest RB conversation though, maybe even ahead of Payton. Only played 8 or 9 years which probably hurt him plus they only had 14 games in a season back then.

Polak · Post by **Polak** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:14 am

AP has been the best running back the last five years.
He will go into the Hall of Fame and he might be the GOAT when it comes to the RB position if he keeps it up for another five.

He still needs a few years to be put passed Marshal Faulk, Emmith Smith, Barry Sanders, Walter Payton and who knows if he will ever touch Jim Brown who averaged more than a TD per game.

I would say he's about to Pass OJ Simpson when it comes to the all time greats. I'm sorry Joey but you are too much of a Vikings fan which makes you overly biased to the situation. The Guy is amazing, but it's been only five years. I might consider LT to be better. He set so many records over a span of four years and he's barley in the TOP 10

scorch- · Post by **scorch-** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:20 am

I think you're all dumb if you think longevity and accomplishments are part of the equation. Greatest of All Time means if you could pick any player (in their prime) to play a position on your team right now, who would it be?

Miller` · Post by **Miller`** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:45 am

Why not? Ralph Sampson was the greatest talent ever, but multiple injuries caused him to be taken out of the basketball equation early. Instead, some dude named Jordan gets the credit.

scorch- · Post by **scorch-** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:48 am

Miller` wrote:Why not? Ralph Sampson was the greatest talent ever, but multiple injuries caused him to be taken out of the basketball equation early. Instead, some dude named Jordan gets the credit.

So you think that Ralph Sampson in his prime was better than Jordan in his prime?

showtime · Post by **showtime** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:32 am

scorch- wrote:I think you're all dumb if you think longevity and accomplishments are part of the equation. Greatest of All Time means if you could pick any player (in their prime) to play a position on your team right now, who would it be?

Accomplishments/stats and a player's "prime" go hand in hand if we are talking about the GOAT conversation because there is probably a MVP, CY Young, record-breaking season, etc involved depending on the sport. This whole thread is getting stupid because everyone's opinion is different. I could just as easily say Terrell Davis is better than Curtis Martin using scorch's argument because he was better in his "prime". While most people would say that Curtis Martin has more yards, TDs, etc etc etc so he was the better player.

scorch- wrote:
Miller` wrote:Why not? Ralph Sampson was the greatest talent ever, but multiple injuries caused him to be taken out of the basketball equation early. Instead, some dude named Jordan gets the credit.
So you think that Ralph Sampson in his prime was better than Jordan in his prime?

I hope he is saying that Sampson never got to reach his full potential. Same with Len Bias.

Polak · Post by **Polak** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:48 am

scorch- wrote:I think you're all dumb if you think longevity and accomplishments are part of the equation. Greatest of All Time means if you could pick any player (in their prime) to play a position on your team right now, who would it be?

Scorch I think you are dumb with this reasoning. Because with this logic you'd have to take all the pitchers who pitched one perfect game the greatest of all time. And the greatest quaterbacks would be Joe Kapp, Y.A. Tittle, Adrian Burk, Sid Luckman who are the only ones to throw 7 touchdown games with ridiculous yardage. These moments are the best of the best and the very prime of a player.

GOAT is something achieved over a long period of time because their variance gets lowered, different players come in over the years and different greats. The NFL is not the same that it was 20 years ago and that also goes into affect.

scorch- · Post by **scorch-** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:44 pm

Polak wrote:Scorch I think you are dumb with this reasoning. Because with this logic you'd have to take all the pitchers who pitched one perfect game the greatest of all time.

That's not my logic at all, that's you trying to make my line of reasoning look bad by distorting it and creating a ridiculous "analogy".

Pitching a perfect game is a confluence of events, some of which are not under the control of the pitcher. Also, your distortion ignores a valuable asset in any player... reliability. If you pick a pitcher based on the fact that they threw a perfect game, how does that help you predict whether they will be the best choice to pitch in your game to save the world? There's a difference between evaluating a player as they perform against a sampling of teams in a league (someone who performs over 1-2 seasons) instead of looking at total career stats. I mean, do you hold Jordan's comeback against him when you consider whether he was the best basketball player ever?

I'm also not saying that I'm basing the evaluation on talent. I'm saying that if someone PROVES their ability over the course of several seasons, you should be evaluating them at their prime, not basing it on their ability to play at a high level when they're 38. Len Bias and Ralph Sampson were really good players with loads of potential, but you can't say they were the greatest based on potential, you can only look at what they actually did.

Polak · Post by **Polak** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:08 pm

Pitching a perfect game is a confluence of events, some of which are not under the control of the pitcher. Also, your distortion ignores a valuable asset in any player... reliability.

Reliability is my point. What about Chris Johnson scorch? His prime season (2009) is better than any of AP's but AP is a better running back still. You have to have to take stats and longevity (to a certain extent) into consideration.

I mean, do you hold Jordan's comeback against him when you consider whether he was the best basketball player ever?

Jordan is the best and his stats shows it, he's also got a bunch of rings and gold medals and MVPs etc etc.

Jordan is the greatest athlete of all time, in my opinion and ESPNs opinion and various other peoples opinions. People look at how long he played, how he played, and what he accomplished. All three of those get looked at.

For fuck shakes you can take this outside of sports and see the top artists of all time and those take a whole bunch of variances as well. It's not just the highest records sold, or just one subject. There are many things to take into consideration.

Basically my point is you can't give someone the title GOAT because of a three year span of greatness.

Miller` · Post by **Miller`** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:20 pm

scorch- wrote:I'm also not saying that I'm basing the evaluation on talent. I'm saying that if someone PROVES their ability over the course of several seasons, you should be evaluating them at their prime, not basing it on their ability to play at a high level when they're 38. Len Bias and Ralph Sampson were really good players with loads of potential, but you can't say they were the greatest based on potential, you can only look at what they actually did.

And yet you said that Bo Jackson was the best ever, I just played off of that statement. Jackson never rushed for more than 950 yards in a season while averaging about 600 yds/yr in four seasons.

Who said anything about 38? How they do from 25-35 is normally their prime and if somebody ducks out before that then their overall lustre will be tarnished. Sanders retired at the age of 30 one year after rushing for 2000 yards and ran for 1000 yards in each of his 10 seasons. Image where he'd be ranked if he continued to rack up those numbers.

All I'm saying is that Adrian Peterson is 28 or so no 38, give him a few more years of doing this in his prime and then we'll talk GOAT.

scorch- · Post by **scorch-** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:59 pm

Miller` wrote:
scorch- wrote:I'm also not saying that I'm basing the evaluation on talent. I'm saying that if someone PROVES their ability over the course of several seasons, you should be evaluating them at their prime, not basing it on their ability to play at a high level when they're 38. Len Bias and Ralph Sampson were really good players with loads of potential, but you can't say they were the greatest based on potential, you can only look at what they actually did.
And yet you said that Bo Jackson was the best ever, I just played off of that statement. Jackson never rushed for more than 950 yards in a season while averaging about 600 yds/yr in four seasons.

I didn't seriously expect anyone to think that Bo Jackson was the best ever... it was mostly just poking fun at the hardcore vikings homer posting about his team's running back having a great season.

You cite his yards per season... His average yards per 16-game season was a little under 1200 while getting 20-30% of his team's carries for 3 of the 4 seasons he played. If he had been the #1 running back and played 16 games, that scales to 1800-2000 yards per season. During his career, he just happened to be the backup for one of the best running backs ever and get injured before he became the star.

I really don't know how to argue with Polak. You clearly consider "greatest" differently than I do. My standard has always been, if I had to choose one person to do X in their prime, who would I pick? WRT Jordan, you didn't even answer the question, and I'm guessing because the answer is "No". I also think you misunderstand what I mean by "reliability". I don't mean being able to do well year-to-year, I mean that if you took that player at their best, how reliably could they or did they perform at that level. Could you rely on them to perform well if you picked them for your team?

Artists are completely different than athletes. Music is something where you improve with time, you don't have a prime and then struggle against your failing body.

Polak · Post by **Polak** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:46 pm

Artists are completely different than athletes. Music is something where you improve with time, you don't have a prime and then struggle against your failing body.

DID YOU SEE ERIC CALPTON DURING THE 12.12.12 CONCERT????????

Polak · Post by **Polak** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:50 pm

I don't mean being able to do well year-to-year, I mean that if you took that player at their best, how reliably could they or did they perform at that level. Could you rely on them to perform well if you picked them for your team?

I think Chris Johnson is a great example for this. "Some consider the 2009 season of Chris Johnson to be one of the best ever in NFL history for a running back.[13] He rushed for 2,006 yards[14] to become one of only six players in NFL history to be in the 2000 rushing yards club. He averaged 5.6 yards per carry and 125.4 yards per game to lead the league.[15] He had 2,509 total yards from scrimmage, breaking Marshall Faulk's single-season record. He was named the NFL's Offensive Player of the Year in 2009. After his 2009 season, the media referred to him as "CJ2K", but has since lost that nickname due to under performing after receiving his new contract."

I don't think CJ can be put into the GOAT category, but based on your opinion for the title GOAT, from what I understand, you can.

Miller` · Post by **Miller`** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:00 pm

scorch- wrote: I didn't seriously expect anyone to think that Bo Jackson was the best ever... it was mostly just poking fun at the hardcore vikings homer posting about his team's running back having a great season.

You cite his yards per season... His average yards per 16-game season was a little under 1200 while getting 20-30% of his team's carries for 3 of the 4 seasons he played. If he had been the #1 running back and played 16 games, that scales to 1800-2000 yards per season. During his career, he just happened to be the backup for one of the best running backs ever and get injured before he became the star.

I really don't know how to argue with Polak. You clearly consider "greatest" differently than I do. My standard has always been, if I had to choose one person to do X in their prime, who would I pick? WRT Jordan, you didn't even answer the question, and I'm guessing because the answer is "No". I also think you misunderstand what I mean by "reliability". I don't mean being able to do well year-to-year, I mean that if you took that player at their best, how reliably could they or did they perform at that level. Could you rely on them to perform well if you picked them for your team?

Artists are completely different than athletes. Music is something where you improve with time, you don't have a prime and then struggle against your failing body.

I expected that, just as I did not really believe that Sampson was the greatest ever. Hell, I went to UNC so no chance I'd pick a UVaer over Jordan.

I think we agree on the prime, but disagree with the point of longevity. To me, it is the longevity of that prime which should be considered as opposed to simple longevity. Jordan's return hurt his image, Kobe is getting to that point now, but they both had very, very long primes and their longevity of that helped them out.

Jerry Rice had 1200 yards receiving in his 17th season in the NFL . That is longevity, that is a very long prime, and that is being the best (2 MVP, 3 Super Bowls) during your prime. To me, you need dominant longevity during your prime to be considered GOAT. AP is a couple seasons away before entering it. Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are just getting there now.

Polak · Post by **Polak** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:04 pm

Miller` wrote:
scorch- wrote: I didn't seriously expect anyone to think that Bo Jackson was the best ever... it was mostly just poking fun at the hardcore vikings homer posting about his team's running back having a great season.

You cite his yards per season... His average yards per 16-game season was a little under 1200 while getting 20-30% of his team's carries for 3 of the 4 seasons he played. If he had been the #1 running back and played 16 games, that scales to 1800-2000 yards per season. During his career, he just happened to be the backup for one of the best running backs ever and get injured before he became the star.

I really don't know how to argue with Polak. You clearly consider "greatest" differently than I do. My standard has always been, if I had to choose one person to do X in their prime, who would I pick? WRT Jordan, you didn't even answer the question, and I'm guessing because the answer is "No". I also think you misunderstand what I mean by "reliability". I don't mean being able to do well year-to-year, I mean that if you took that player at their best, how reliably could they or did they perform at that level. Could you rely on them to perform well if you picked them for your team?

Artists are completely different than athletes. Music is something where you improve with time, you don't have a prime and then struggle against your failing body.
I think we agree on the prime, but disagree with the point of longevity. To me, it is the longevity of that prime which should be considered as opposed to simple longevity. Jordan's return hurt his image, Kobe is getting to that point now, but they both had very, very long primes and their longevity of that helped them out.

Jerry Rice had 1200 yards receiving in his 17th season in the NFL . That is longevity, that is a very long prime, and that is being the best (2 MVP, 3 Super Bowls) during your prime. To me, you need dominant longevity during your prime to be considered GOAT. AP is a couple seasons away before entering it. Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are just getting there now.

That's the page I'm on, or at least trying to say myself. Kudos to you.

scorch- · Post by **scorch-** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:21 pm

See, to me longevity is really just a tiebreaker. Now, the question you have to ask yourself is what made Chris Johnson so good for that one season? If you took him in his prime and put him in the league today, would he be good? Did he stop training as hard or did teams figure him out after one season? Did he not understand the game well enough to adapt?

There are a lot of aspects that you can argue makes/breaks who was the better player. I don't think "how long he was good" can be used as a prime indicator, although I'll agree that it could be used as evidence of certain areas of skill that should be considered.

cassinoroyale · Post by **cassinoroyale** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:08 pm

nerds

sevEN · Post by **sevEN** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:58 pm

knockout wrote:Why mention carries when AP averages 6.3 YPC? SIX. POINT. THREE. IN THE NFL. WHEN THE OTHER TEAM KNOWS THAT CHRISTIAN PONDER IS YOUR QUARTERBACK.

Also, Dan hasn't followed football since Johnny Unitas retired gg rofl you're old420

I appreciate the caps and the broken sentences with periods to put emphasis on just how fucking insane of a season he is having. here are some great points regarding what he's doing. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1449 ... ryone-else

scorch- wrote: Don't bother arguing with vpaz. Kid's a retard. I haven't followed football since the Rams left LA, but Bo Jackson was the best gg. 4.12 40 at 220 lbs, if it weren't for that freak hip injury...

i definitely acknowledge how insanely talented, physically gifted, and athletic bo jackson was. and it is a shame he couldnt stick with football and/or avoid that hip injury. but peterson is starting to put together such a complete body of work at this point in his career that after this season, we need to start looking at his place among the greatest RB of all time, not just in the game today. bo jackson has such a small sample size and incomplete body of work in the nfl that it is hard to include him in such discussions, unless we are talking about potential or physical freaks.

SKiNnTo wrote:He can't be the "GOAT" yet, needs more time in the league. And I don't think he'll be in the league in 7-8 years. 3-4 years is the average for an NFL player.

if you are comparing adrian peterson to the "average player" in the nfl as far as years played, then you really don't know how to judge a player. the average player would still be rehabbing his knee injury. AP is breaking the rushing record. he is obviously a very special player. unless he sustains another 1 or 2 devastating, career threatening type injuries, i guarantee you he will be in the league in 7 years. take that one to the bank.

Miller` wrote:Bo Jackson was the most talented, but not the GOAT because of that injury. Much like Barry Sanders may have beent he GOAT but quit about three years too soon.

GOAT = Jerry Rice then Walter Payton.

AP has a chance, just needs more time and not get injured again.

By the way, Calvin Johnson has a chance to break the single-season receiving record and also has nothing else going on for him.

i still wouldnt consider bo jackson the "most talented". i would say he was the best athlete and most physically gifted... but it's hard to compare "talent". one could say tom brady is much more "talented" than bo jackson, yet they are nowhere near the same planet when it comes to being an athlete. im actually surprised that bo jackson is getting so much love in a "greatest running back of all time" debate. there isnt a single football historian or football analyst that would name bo jackson if you asked him "tell me your top 5 running backs of all time" and i'd go as far as to say 99% wouldnt include him if you asked for the top 10.

barry sanders would probably take the cake if not for retiring too soon, as you mentioned.

and jerry rice the greatest player?? ehhhhhh i have a different opinion on jerry rice. jerry rice had such amazing hall of famers around him for his entire career. he was also a VERY big beneficiary of walsh's west coast offense which was so new at the time that defenses didnt have a way to defend it for such a long time. very much a system player imo. you can plug in another above average WR and he could have put up close to the same numbers as jerry rice given he played as long. not saying he isnt one of the greatest of all time, but i dont hold him as high as most do.

and calvin johnson is having an incredible year also. but... it just doesnt compare to what AP is doing. johnson is being defended by 2 guys at a time and being thrown to by an elite QB. adrian peterson is being defended by 8 and 9 in the box and is beating them on a consistent basis, despite the entire stadium knowing he is getting the ball. lions actually have a good amount of weapons to compliment calvin johnson. vikings will throw gerhart for the very occasional screen pass on 3rd and 22, but that's it. a team can pass aaaallll day long and if they are good at it, they can get away with it. no need for a run game. just ask the pats. but for a team like the vikings who runs runs runs, that is something that is NOT supposed to work. not at all. but it does because we have the best rb in the league by far.

showtime wrote: +1. I'd put Jim Brown right up there in the greatest RB conversation though, maybe even ahead of Payton. Only played 8 or 9 years which probably hurt him plus they only had 14 games in a season back then.

jim brown has to be up there for sure. but one thing to consider about jim brown is that he played at a time when he weighed 240 and ran a 4.3, and every single dude on the field trying to tackle him were playing football as a 2nd job and went to work to support the family. over time and after watching countless jim brown highlights, ive come to the conclusion that he was a giant strong RB who could run fast in a straight line once he got going, and was playing against 170 lb middle school teachers and construction workers who suited up on sundays on their day off. but you cant keep him out of the top 5 even if you tried. if my memory is correct, he lead the league in rushing every single year he played. that is just absurd.

walter payton is probably my pick for best running back of all time if i had to choose one.

Polak wrote:AP has been the best running back the last five years.
He will go into the Hall of Fame and he might be the GOAT when it comes to the RB position if he keeps it up for another five.

He still needs a few years to be put passed Marshal Faulk, Emmith Smith, Barry Sanders, Walter Payton and who knows if he will ever touch Jim Brown who averaged more than a TD per game.

I would say he's about to Pass OJ Simpson when it comes to the all time greats. I'm sorry Joey but you are too much of a Vikings fan which makes you overly biased to the situation. The Guy is amazing, but it's been only five years. I might consider LT to be better. He set so many records over a span of four years and he's barley in the TOP 10

i agree with pretty much everything you said, but i dont think i am being overly biased. when i made the thread, i didnt mean to make it seem like i was literally touting him as the #1 greatest of all time. i was just excited to get a discussion going about him and his accomplishments this season. but he is at the point where you need to start considering him very high in the conversation when you take into account all of the different factors surrounding his situation and entire career.

and to be clear, he is 2 games from finishing his 6th season. jim brown is considered by most to be the GOAT after just playing 9. i think after the 6 seasons AP has had, we can put him in the same conversation and eventually put him atop of the conversation after another 4-5.

scorch- wrote:I think you're all dumb if you think longevity and accomplishments are part of the equation. Greatest of All Time means if you could pick any player (in their prime) to play a position on your team right now, who would it be?

this reminds me of the qualifications to make the hall of fame. or even the MVP award. there are a certain number of voters, and each one of them have different criteria that they use to judge a player and make a decision. they also have much different interpretations of the meaning of MVP or GOAT. i think what you just described dan has to be asked more specifically, just like you just phrased it. if you ask it that way, and you are asking for a RB at the top of his prime, bo jackson will be very high on that list for a lot of people. but for me it has to do with the entire body of work. there are so many things that go into wether or not a player is great. i like to take into consideration eeeeeeeeeeeeverything from stats, to superbowls, to longevity, to consistency, to performance in big games, to raw talent, to physical abilities, to mental toughness and attitude, to what he does to the opposing defenses and/or defensive coordinators.. and those are just a few off the top of my head. so many things. and if you break them down individually, you might have a different running back who is the best at each category. but i feel like it's about the players who are at or near the top of as many categories as possible. so that when you combine all of that into 1, you get a player that is the greatest or one of the greatest.

scorch- wrote:it was mostly just poking fun at the hardcore vikings homer posting about his team's running back having a great season.

homer? gimme a break. i definitely do not qualify as a homer. anyone who has talked football with me over the years knows that i am a realist when it comes to the vikings and i just say it how it is. and my unbiased opinion is that AP is entering the point in his career where we can start putting him in the conversation of greatest of all time. and im sure there are plenty of packers and bears "homers" who would agree with me after the beatings they have been taking for the past 6 years and will take the next 6-7.

Polak wrote: "Some consider the 2009 season of Chris Johnson to be one of the best ever in NFL history for a running back.[13] He rushed for 2,006 yards[14] to become one of only six players in NFL history to be in the 2000 rushing yards club. He averaged 5.6 yards per carry and 125.4 yards per game to lead the league.[15] He had 2,509 total yards from scrimmage, breaking Marshall Faulk's single-season record.

if you think he had such an incredible season, just realize that AP is on pace and about to crush every one of those stats you just mentioned. just sayin.

Miller` wrote:AP is a couple seasons away before entering it. Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are just getting there now.

i disagree with that statement a little bit. i feel like AP is entering it and manning/brady have been there for a while now. i mean, manning was voted 8th best player in nfl history, and that was after the 2010 season.

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anyways... i am an obsessive football fanatic and i have very much enjoyed reading through and responding to a lot of your posts. im glad this thread got so much input and opinions.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:51 am

too many walls of text, but

Reliability is my point. What about Chris Johnson scorch? His prime season (2009) is better than any of AP's but AP is a better running back still. You have to have to take stats and longevity (to a certain extent) into consideration

I think I have to disagree and say AP's 2012 is better than Chris Johnson's 2009

knockout · Post by **knockout** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:59 am

Who said anything about 38? How they do from 25-35 is normally their prime and if somebody ducks out before that then their overall lustre will be tarnished.

I dunno about that- I mean, maybe for baseball players. Football players at the skill positions usually duck out around 32/33, regardless of whether they play past that age or not. I don't know that any RB has had a Pro Bowl deserving year at 35.

Miller` · Post by **Miller`** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:42 am

sevEN wrote:
Miller` wrote:AP is a couple seasons away before entering it. Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are just getting there now.
i feel like AP is entering it and manning/brady have been there for a while now. i mean, manning was voted 8th best player in nfl history, and that was after the 2010 season.

You pretty much highlighted my point. The talk is normally done by the talking heads and, having helped dictate the talking heads, I can tell you that AP will be discussed after this year as one of the best ever but they will all say he hasn't won a championship and needs a few more years. Manning, when we was voted the 8th best player, was still 34 at the time so not a spring chicken.

knockout wrote: I dunno about that- I mean, maybe for baseball players. Football players at the skill positions usually duck out around 32/33, regardless of whether they play past that age or not. I don't know that any RB has had a Pro Bowl deserving year at 35.

That range is not exact. Obviously the shelf-life for a RB is much shorter and also starts earlier than a QB (at least it used to, not so much any more). Hell, Sweetness retired around 32. But again, AP is still 27, not 32. He has more years in what is expected to be his prime.

If I were to be asked who had the most talent in the NFL, I'd give you one set of players. If I were to be asked who had the best career, I'd give you another set of players. If I were to be asked who was the greatest of all time, I'd give yet another set of players, but they'd trend more towards those who accomplished more on the field over their career than those that did not.

The statement was greatest of all time, not who had the best season. Otherwise Drew Brees is #1.

Drew Breeeeeeeeees

Polak · Post by **Polak** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:02 am

Chris Johnson's 2009 stats:

Att Yards TD long yd/c yd/g att/g rec yards avg td long rec/g rey/g Total all purpose yards
358 2006 14 91 5.6 125.4 22.4 50 503 10.1 2 69 3.1 31.4 2509

Adrian Peterson 2012 Stats
289 1812 11 82 6.3 129.4 20.6 38 211 5.6 0 20 2.7 15.1 2023

Adrian Peterson is almost 500 all purpose yards away from Chris Johnsons years and 5 TDs away.